Sean D and Folks.
In response to "Normally with Turbocad and sketchup the exploded arcs, polylines and splines turn into straight lines rather than smooth flowing curves when opening them in AutoCAD."

What you are experiencing is 3d data being translated to 2d data - and not well. In an effort to keep this post simple, I will try to offer up my experience with getting 3d stuff to usable 2d stuff.

AutoCad will create 3D shapes and volumetric solids well - if based on a know curve/vector data and not a spline data. Spline will be addressed later. The best way to get a "slice" of that 3D shape out intact is to "snap shot" the slice into a new 2d plane, and convert it to a closed polyline. (essentially, taking sections of the shapes you want to cut out. As long as the slice is a CLOSED polyline, it will stay true to drawing. - sometime tracing the slice as a new native polyline is easier, quicker and smarter than trying to get the original content to work. - Then, copyclip that into a new DWG file with that shape alone and export as the file as a dxf to get into LazyCAM.

A spline is a variable curved line that the NODE of the curve holds the data and not the arc itself. First, you must draw that spline in a 2d plane and then get that 2d shape into one of the native x/y UCS planes that autoCAD defaults to. If you don't, that spline will turn up in all sorts of strange places in the 3d world. If your lost, get really familiar with the ALIGN command in AutoCAD.

2nd, when you explode a spline it either doesn't explode or it turns into little lines segments based on the default setting in the control panel of AutoCAD. IF the shape your cutting is large enough, you can change the segment length from a preset (i think is 16 segments per line upto 128 segments per line) add enough segments and that straight cutting almost eliminates itself. Ellipse's are neither a spline nor an arc in autocad. They are an entity. They will NEVER explode and don't like to be exported. The best option for an ellipse is to draw it in another program that holds the EPS type vector data and exports it well... I use Adobe Illustrator or CorelDraw! to get ellipses to the router table and works really well.

The really great way to get 3d drawings and models to the table and hold all the native data is to really use a good translation program as your 3rd party go between. The great high end choices area Rhino and 3dstudioMAX as your final exporter. These 2 programs have direct translation from AutoCAD and handle NURB based geometry as their native modeling environment. The easy thing to know is that NURB based (rhino, 3dmax) geometry handles curves and 3D space far better than a Vector based (autocad, turbocad, vectorworks) geometry program.

It all comes down to how complex your model is, but if you making smooth 3d carvings, then you will definitely need a nurb geometry program. There are many programs, including artCarve and others that are affordable.....

Like Marc referred to earlier, spend the money and learn a good program that will be around. I have been using AutoCAD since 1987 and interface has not changed much in those 20 years - plus, upgrades are always cheaper than a new program license. I am actually looking at purchasing a license of Rhino or Enroute3D for just this reason to get my models to the table with the geometry intact. I'll keep you posted on my findings.

Sean

Rhino
 

Sean,

I would highly recommend you trying Rhino.
(A) Rhino was developed by Mcneel Associates who originated by creating plugins for AutoCad. Consquently, Rhino is very closely related to Autocad and you should pickup in no time if you know Autocad (I used AC prior to Rhino). In fact I beleive that after Rhino 4 was recently released, AC realized that Rhino was a direct competitor (and not just a helper application) and they dropped mcneel from their developer program.
(B) Rhino has several CAM plugins to chose from (I use RhinoCam from Mecsoft).
This program is very good, and for doing 2D work, you would only require RhinoCam Basic (as opposed to RhinoCam Pro) which is priced very reasonably.

Basically the workflow is.
(1) Draw objects in 2D that you would like to cut
(2) Select the objects
(3) Select a MOP (machine strategy) In most cases you would be looking for a "Profile".
(4) Configure the MOP (i.e. selecte a bit, Depth of each pass, ramp in, ramp out, etc)
(5) Generate and Simulate (simulation is done in 3D on screen showing the bit and actual material being removed, etc).
The you can export the GCODE file when you are happy.
You never have to leave Rhino.

If you purchase RhinoCam Basic from Mecsoft, you will get Rhino 4.0 at a discount. All of the above are available for 30 day free trials.

BR.

Thanks guys. Lots to try out and think about

Quick consolidated reply to all the previous qoutes.
- I know 3d...I almost work exclusively in 3d modeling space whether in Inventor, solidworks, AutoCAD or Rhino. My challenge has been getting those 3d models out as a 2d "splined or nurbed" entity without facets. Enroute 3d and Rhino have been the only programs I have used to do this well. I don't own a licensed copy of either and I plan on buying one of them.

Sean - Rhino supports 3d...AutoCAD LT does not....Get 3d capable software. You won't be sorry you learned. Enroute3 has A LOT of great CNC output options. A truly amazing tool bit and path interface that makes sending files to the table a breeze.

....back to wiring that darn kitchen project.
Sean

Sean_R, have you had a look at Vectric's products? I am personally not up to speed on all these issues, but the reports on Vectric are excellent. I actually met Brian & Tony in England 2 years' ago and realised these were guys to be watched. They have developed some very useful (and user-friendly) software recently.

(PS. AutoCAD LT does a 3D toolpath quite happily - it doesn't do solids, renders, extrusions, etc, but can handle "wireframes" in 3D space)

Gerald,
Yes, I have been quietly watching the Vectric software...mostly on the Shopbot forums for feedback. They are in the consideration. I apologize on the the misquote on AutoCAD LT.....I usually only deal with Extrusions and Solids, thus forgot it does to 3d toolpath and "faces". I've working in solids for so long I "forgot" there are still other ways of doing 3d!
Of course, everything I have been doing here in the shop hasn't stopped me from producing good parts. I am just looking for an "easier" way that won't require ME at the computer generating a file for the table. :)

Older Dog...hard to remember & learn new tricks.

Sean R

Gerald,

I downloaded all the Vectric products and they are very, very, good at the CAM functions, however I really do not like the CAD Interface (which are very important to me). It is hard to explain, however when you have lived inside a CAD modeling system like AutoCad or Rhino for such a long time, when you go over to a more widget based interface like Vectric (or Artcam or Illustrator for that matter), it seems just a bit off. I just feel like I am constantly moving bits around and stretching things and that everything gets all jumbled up, however most of this is probably related to lack of practice. But in my mind, there is a clear different feel to AutoCad and Rhino, I think it is the same feeling of the difference between Windows and Linux, if that makes any sense. While one seems more easy to use on the surface, in the end, I look for power and consistency. I can say with confidence that if you like AutoCad, you will Love Rhino, it is pretty much the same interface except costs less, does some more (i.e. Rhino 4.0 3D features vs Autocad LT) and you would have very little learning curve, plus benefit of having abilty to plug CAM right into the system through a third party plugin.

Sean (smreish),

I'm thinking of buying a new cad program because my AutoCAD 2000 is not working right in Vista. I'm looking at Rhino 4.0 and now after reading these posts, Enroute3D.

Did you ever make a decision on Rhino or Enroute? Any recommendations?

I'm glad you asked.
I found that I was able to use my current license of AutoCad for the 3d part and then export to Vectric Cut3d. Actually, I have recently issued a purchase order for the entire suite of products...$$$. :) It should arrive next week. I will keep you posted.
I have used Rhino in the past it's really very easy to use as well. Additionally, Rhino does have some nice export features that AutoDesk products don't.
Good luck

Thanks Sean.

Think I'll ask the boss to cut me a P.O. tonight. I want to purchase Rhino 4.0 and Rhinoart.

Hi
This is the link to all of rhino ressource from boat building to jewel, shoes, bikes .... Some are free some not. http://www.rhino3d.com/resources/def...o=&language=en
It might tip the scale toward rhino.
Normand

free on line nester http://www.rhino3d.e-cnc.com/

Purchased Rhino 4.0 and Rhinoart last night. :)

Well Greg, been a month since you have purchased the rhino+rhinoart, how is it going? is it simple and time saving to use this combo? what tasks don't you do with these two?

I'm also after some piece of software that will make the cad/cam be in tune, and at a reasonable price too.

Thanks!

Orotemo,

It took about 1-1/2 weeks for the CD to arrive, so I've only been working with Rhino and RhinoArt for 2-1/2 weeks, in my spare time.

My background is with AutoCAD 2000, so I wasn't learning drafting/modeling and the other basic concepts. Just the programs.

Rhino 4.0 has two learning manuals (level 1 and level 2). Level 1 is the basic lines, curves, layout and general drafting. I got bored about 1/2 thru and jumped to the level 2 manual. I'm about 1/3 of the way on the level 2 manual.

My quick impression of Rhino 4.0 is very good. It's an intuitive and fun program to learn and use. Will do everything and more, than AutoCAD 2000. I don't think my learning with Rhino would be any different than converting from AutoCAD 2000 to AutoCAD 2008 (whatever the latest version is).

RhinoArt is a different story. A very easy program to use and seems to have the functions I'm looking for, but it crashes allot. Simple raster images (black and white, line drawings) convert over to a vector format nicely. Complicated multi colored jpg photos crash my system. Probably just a lack of memory issue on my computer.

Overall, the learning curve is well worth the price/cost differential to convert from AutoCAD to Rhino.

Legal crap: I don't work for Rhino or any software development company. The intension was to give my impressions/recommendations of a CAD program. A good CAD program (it doesn't have to be Rhino) will make better end products for anyones CNC router.

If someone plan to buy rhino or the other cam add on bundle ,these guys are cheaper than mecsoft or rhino.
http://www.computersculpture.com/Pag...ool_Paths.html

Low cost 2D DXF2Gcode Conversion programs and CNC projects..
http://www.cad2gcode.com/

Rhino 4.0 Learning Curve
 

I thought I should add a comment about the learning curve with Rhino 4.0.

I have had no problem learning Rhino and my opinion is there is a short learning curve. The tutorials and help menus are very good. I'm sure there is a Rhino forum somewhere, but I never needed it.

I've watched another individual who was very good with 2D (I forget the CAD software) take less than a month to master 3D. The 3D model that I saw was of a boat hull. If you can model a boat hull, you can model anything.

Maybe that individual (hint, hint, Marc) could give his thoughts.

Well "master" 3D might be just a bit of a stretch. I was a pretty good 2D user of TurboCAD and I was asked to create some models for boat hulls as Greg mentioned. That just might be a bit of an ambitious goal for someone new to 3D but I did it. Of the 10,000 functions that Rhino can do, I probably know 50. But, as stated, those 50 got the job done.

To really work your machine, you have to be able to effectively model your designs. I wholeheartedly can recommend Rhino for this purpose. Jump in you and you will be rewarded with more design capability than you thought possible.

I am happy to answer specific questions. Ask away!

Hi all,

I have been using Rhino since Rhino was version 1.0. I noticed that Rhino is more for items like Boat hulls and such than any other program in it's price range. I also find it quite easy to model a boat compared to most other software as the loft command is much better than some other programs (Autodesk software). I plan on using it with Aspire software for my CAM applications. You can probably tell I use my CNC to make model boats. I was contacted by an Aspire sales rep last week. He informed me that they have a cam plug-in for Rhino. After I researched this so called "plug-in" I noticed they partnered with the people that wrote RhinoCAM and the plug-in is the same one. The only reason I mention all this is because I can get student pricing on such items and it makes all the difference for me to use these than any of the other programs such as Vectric products which I highly recommend.
The guys at Vectric are great and their products are top notch if not a little tough to get used to.

I am not affiliated with any program or groups and use my equipment for my own enjoyment. I have a lack of ability with normal tools and can program computers to do it all for me so why not have some fun.

Well,
I just received in the Post today all of my new Rhino suite. Rhino 4, Rhino Cam and Rhino 4th axis.
I let you all know how quick I can learn Rhino again. I haven't touched since it's first release back in 98? or something like that!
...now where is that darn instruction manual:p

That was when I started learning Rhino as well. College was a great time to not go to class to learn CAD programs instead

Hi Jason
We heard lots of good things all over about Vetric Aspire Now that they have a plug in with Rhino and Mecsoft's Rhinocam it might become even more interesting. Try to get some links from sales rep, to this great plugin because there is no mention of it in either Rhino ,Rhinocam or Vetric aspire web sites.
Normand Blais

I was informed it's not the same thing that the foreign sales rep was pronouncing it incorrectly it is Alibre they partnered with Mecsoft and the software is just RhinoCAM with some basic parametric CAD functions added. I'm trying the Demo ATM it looksl like it has good toolpathing. Since the demo does not allow it to be exported or saved to use in G-code it just looks pretty :D Vectric's Aspire is just great to begin with but unfortunately I was misinformed by the sales rep.

Ah those sale's rep working even on holiday . Anyway it did not make any sense Vetric aspire is a cadcam software why would they need to plugin with
Rhino (cad) or mecsoft (cam)

Sean,

We're men.......Neeeever admit to reading the manual:eek:

What manual???:confused:

I just asked where the manual was....I wasn't really going to read it! :) Merry Christmas.
I have about 10 manuals in front of me trying to located the battery hatch for all the santa toys that have arrived at the house.

Back to kids and xmas joy.
SEan

The sales rep I got must have been trying to get a bonus or something. I would call Rhino more of a surfacing CAD as that's what it's good at. Which is great for working on the things I like to mill.

Hi Jason
Your right Rhino is a nurbs modeler, not very good at meshs editing. In Rhino when your nurb model is done it is converted to a mesh for toolpathing

Did you try Aspire , I look at the site but did not try the software yet. It look like a kind of high field bitmap, raster to vector software. Put in a picture and it draw the contour and with sculpting pull and push tools you work the volume of your relief. I think Artcam is like that also.It is easy and intuitive . Rhinocam came out with Rhinoart similar approach. These work with mesh and is different than working with nurbs

I had some peoples get me to machine their models made in ZBrush, they are mesh and Rhino take for ever to slice them. These mesh are to big to be converted to nurbs, then rhino could have slice them easily. Zbrush apparently wont slice, so say the kids who send me their monster models. I have try Zbrush http://www.pixologic.com/home.php and shown the basic . It is light year from anything else, different, very intuitive. Look at their galerie of course lots of monster but lots of beauty to. There also is lots of tutorial on youtube for it . For a sculptor it is a great way to work never will Aspire aspire to this level. But Zbrush dont have a cam ,and is not like Aspire a high field bitmap, raster to vector software

All of them have strong points We have to know what we want to do first then what the software can do to chose right. Also there is the cad or design, and the cam aspect to consider and also the price.

That is where it get confusing. What software to do what? Would Aspire be good at precise work with acurate matching parts? Rhino dont handle mesh to well yet...Artcam I dont have a clue...

Would be good to have a objective talk about software not from sale rep but user who design, toolpath and machine

Normand Blais

I am interested in hearing what others are using also. I have a copy of ArtCAM and I downloaded a trial version of Aspire. They each do their thing a little different. I am still in the learning curve on both. I think I will be buying Asprie because of its price.

I have the demo of Vectric's Aspire, Vcarve pro, and cut3d. The cut 3d program is nice Vcarve and Aspire are quite similar. The Vectric products should be similar to ArtCAM as the guys that created the programs came from ArtCAM.

Normand,
That sounds pretty much the way those programs work you can import a picture and create toolpaths to cut it out if you wanted. I have not played with them too much as I am tweaking my machine and adjusting things. I'm learning as I go. I find that most of the products out there will do a vast amount of things well. I just have a hard time deciding on what is easiest for me to learn in the fastest amount of time.

As for what software to use it depends on what you want to accomplish and what you have to work with. I find that I tend to use any CAD style programs to do the majority of my setup and the CAM programs just to generate G-code. I know that's not the best way to do that as I should be using the best parts of both to make life easier and faster.

For those playing with 3D programs before actually getting their MM's into production, my standard old story. . . . .

Your quickest way to earning money is to cut boring old 2D stuff. Cut boards into shapes, preferably curved shapes, stuff that guys cannot do on table saw. Sign letters, movie sets, décor, flat-pack furniture and toys, etc.

I think it is not wise to focus on buying and learning 3D programs if you plan to go into production with a MM but don't have a market yet. If your first clients are going to want 3D stuff, you are probably going to make a loss.

For the past year I have been using the boring, yet effective Lazy Cam for all my 2d simple stuff. The Rhino purchase evolved from a well paying contract that requires our company to make "many" 3D life size statues.
The CAM options for a well suited and "easy enough" to use 4th axis package is limited, thus I chose RHinoCam.

I have access to laser scan meshes of the statues and all I am is reproducing them, adding a little fiberglass and viola! Statues.

The total investment in the 4th axis, new z-slide and software is about 6,000$ About the cost of the MM new! Thank goodness the machine paid for itself by last August. Yes, less than 6 months in my shop and it was fully paid off.

For what it's worth ....

I may have my first, couple of paying customers. The first is a sign for a local insurance company. The second is a custom screen door. I've done no active marketing and only word of mouth.

Both are 2D jobs. I have to say though, what caught their attention and interest was the 3D leafs. Showing a potential customer a 3D sample is a good marketing tool.

A 2D sample makes a good marketing tool, but a 3D sample grabs and holds a potential customer.

You may not start out with 3D, but I'll bet, you'll be wanting to go 3D, months after your MM is up and running.

Aspire - my take
 

I happened to attend a meeting when Aspire was being demo'ed by the author. It seems to be a great, but high $$ for my wallet, program. If you are doing 3-d signs or architectural stuff and need more of a 3-d drawing program, that uses all kinds of 3-D clipart, and you can mesh, move, meld, filet for transition, it is a FANTASTIC program.

If you need something for 3D parts that need specific dimensions, and 'engineering' like drawings, Aspire is NOT your program.

It can fill a need to put lots of 'art' into 'engineering' drawings if you need that kind of thing. Like design drawer fronts to work in something else, then use Aspire to put sea shells and unicorns with pictures of children mixed on the drawer fronts and other pieces.

At least that is my '10,000 foot' overview.

Even the person demoing the software said he spent days getting his 4 hour presentation to work smoothly. He designed an oval plaque from scratch. Put words on it to V-cut, then put shells, and fleurdelis kinds of things. And took it all the way to g-code (actually ShopBot code since that was the conference I attended).

out of curiosity, any OSX users out there? I know vector works is available on OSX, but that's all I know really...
In the past I have used Pro/Engineer a bit, but since I moved out of NL into EC and switched to OSX I am kinda lost :)

Does anybody know a CAD program that is parametric by design? I did try Sketch-Up one day, but that feels like MS Paint compare to Adonbe Photoshop and I don't call that really a serious tool. But I do like that fact that I can build something on my computer and know it will work.

Ries

Your right Gerald for most MechMater there will be much better money making 2d stuff .And for that, all one need is a regular inexpensive cad and cam software. Doing like you say, stuff that guys cannot do on table saw.


This only for the ones who want to do 3d and live the life of poor rebel artists

Eventualy when cnc is well establish (exemple http://www.gorillacnc.com/general_cnc_pro )we will say do stuff that guy dont usualy do on their cnc. Changes are happening fast, remember wizzard software, they mature into "Pro and Master". Maybe Aspire is delcam's way to get another part of the market with pretty much the same, at a lower price? Also many cadcam software galerie are compose of 3d scans of handmade sculptures.

Long ago , the painter portraitist spend his life mastering his art.Then the photograph came and he was able
with not much artistic skill to do a perfect lookalike portrait in no time. Then there was the camera for the mass.

The same thing is starting to happen to sculpture today, anybody can get a software put in a picture and get a 3d result. If one wants to stand out from the mass there a need to be always one step ahead. That is why I mention zbrush ,here in Montreal we have a big animation industrie many peoples are working with these specialise software
actualy mostly kids and young people. It seem like they have not made the connection with cnc yet. Like cnc guy have not connect yet with real 3d software .
Normand Blais

The 3D softwares mentioned above enable one to do two things:

a. - Design in 3D (CAD)

b. - Machine a 3D design on a CNC machine (CAM)

It is part a. that makes the software expensive. In reality, as CNC machine owners, we will often be asked to cut the designs of our clients. We ourselves are not essentially the designers, we are only the machine operators. For that we can make better money by have good CAM programs only.

The entertainment industry designs their characters and movie sets in one family of software, the boat guys design their rudders in something else, and architects do their terrain models in something completely different again. If you have been caught up in the fun of building and owning a MM, decide if you want to be a architect, movie effects designer, naval architect, etc. before discussing one 3D CAD/CAM package over another. As I see it there is not a single 3D CAD/CAM program that stands out above the rest for all industries . . . . . . and there is not a single 3D CAD/CAM program that will turn us into designers for all disciplines overnight. These 3D packages are horrendously expensive and what you buy today is probably overtaken by something else in 3 year's time.

Hi Gerald
I start to get the picture 2D cad for 2d stuff
3d cad different for the application desired I mention Zbrush because it is one of the leading in pure art no boat no architec no mecanic part possible with it only art .Ok it has no cam but at $599 it is not that expensive considering what it can do .Again only if you are into art;)