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  #31  
Old Thu 11 February 2010, 12:02
baseball43v3r
Just call me: John #96
 
Glendora (California)
United States of America
there is no difference, unless you meant to post a different motor? because letter for letter they are the same? did you mean maybe the 8 wire motor?
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  #32  
Old Thu 11 February 2010, 12:50
MetalHead
Just call me: Mike
 
Columbiana AL
United States of America
I fixed it - Cut and paste error.
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  #33  
Old Thu 11 February 2010, 13:17
bradm
Just call me: Brad #10
 
Somerville(MA)
United States of America
The KL34H260-60-4A has only four wires, and is 465 oz/in. You get it wired Bipolar Parallel whether you like it or not.

The KL34H260-42-8A has eight wires, and is 400 oz/in if wired the same way (Bipolar Parallel), or Bipolar Series. Series requires higher voltages, lower amperages, and there's often little advantage in that. However, you can also choose to wire this motor Unipolar (useless with a Gecko, you need a 6 wire driver for this), or Bipolar Half Coil. In both of these cases you only get 282 oz/in. However, this wiring brings the motor into electrical compatibility with a G540/G250 to save some $$.

If you're not trying to get the electrical compatibility with the G540, the 4 wire motor is just fine to use with a G203V, less confusing, and gets you some bonus torque.

I agree that either should be fine at 48 VDC.
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  #34  
Old Thu 11 February 2010, 15:20
MetalHead
Just call me: Mike
 
Columbiana AL
United States of America
Ok - that is the line of thought I had on that.

Now that said would not the Antek PS-4N48R12 be a good power source for the KL34H260-60-4A motors ?

http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=356

Mike
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  #35  
Old Thu 11 February 2010, 19:49
bradm
Just call me: Brad #10
 
Somerville(MA)
United States of America
Yes, that looks like a good match. Of course, you're really only talking about 3 components beyond the $50 transformer itself - two capacitors valued at about $6 each, and a rectifier valued at $3, so there's a fair amount of profit baked into the $110.
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  #36  
Old Thu 11 February 2010, 21:28
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
After I learn how to build PSU in my previous amplifier projects, I never bother with ready-to-use PSU units, ever! For the same money, I can build 3 more units! & you can use "better" components of your choice.
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  #37  
Old Sat 13 February 2010, 05:29
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
Okay,

I stepped up to the plate and ordered an Antec 48V-800VA-R5-R12.
4 ea G203V, and my belt drive machined parts. Will probably order my motors and PDMX-122 next week. On the lookout for a box to house the stuff.

Reason for the High VA is for any motor wiring changes in the future plus it was only $40 more than a 600VA. Also I get the 5V and 12V for accessories.

Metalhead, I got the laser parts and all look great. Thanks for the goodie bag also. I'll take some pictures for this thread today.

John
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  #38  
Old Sat 13 February 2010, 06:01
MetalHead
Just call me: Mike
 
Columbiana AL
United States of America
Glad I could help !!! Let me know if you need any other parts.
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  #39  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 07:28
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
Laser Cut Parts

Finally got around to inventory and pictures of my laser cut parts
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File Type: jpg Tokamak Laser Parts.JPG (50.5 KB, 1094 views)
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  #40  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 08:40
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
I've come late to this thread, but I'm a little concerned about the power supply and the motors.

The KL34H260-42-8A motor has 1.65mH inductance when wired bipolar parallel or half-coil. 32 X SQRT(1.65 mH) = 41VDC maximum. Using a 48VDC power supply may overheat the motors unless you reduce the current pulled by the motors. Remember that heat (Watts) is Current X Voltage. Increasing the Voltage increases the Wattage QUICKLY.

A resistive load that draws 4.2A and is powered by a 41VDC power supply would develop 172.2 Watts, i.e. 41V X 4.2A = 172.2W.

A resistive load that draws 4.2A and is powered by a 48VDC power supply would develop 201.6Watts, i.e. 41V X 4.2A = 201.6W.

To use the 48VDC power supply and to keep the Watts at 172.2, you would need to reduce the current to 3.58A, i.e. 3.58A X 48V = ~172 Watts.

Of course, we're using stepper motors, not resistors, so things get fuzzy. If the motor is never pushed very hard, it may never pull 4.2A. If it doesn't pull 4.2A, it won't develop excessive heat.

If we remember that Mariss at Geckodrive wrote that formula and used the term MAXIMUM voltage, then we should realize that MAXIMUM means the highest temperature at which the motor will function without melting its insulation.

In my testing, I was able to reduce the Voltage by 25% without compromising the speed of the motor - when used in a CNC router application. It serves no useful purpose to have enough voltage to spin a motor at 1,500 RPM if we can only use 900 RPM. The extra voltage required to spin the motor at high speed only contributes heat. In electronics, the hotter the component, the shorter its life span.
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  #41  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 08:48
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Mike, if you drop the voltage 25%, the max jog speed comes down 25%.
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  #42  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 10:35
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
The motor I am using is KL34H280-45-8A with a 2.2mH inductance.

32 X SQRT 2.2 = 47.46VDC Max.

I'm not sure what my exact power supply output voltage will be, that will be dependent on my line voltage.

Does this max voltage, wattage, current, heat all come into play when the motors are running full speed or will they heat while holding.

Do the Gekos pulse the motors with variable voltage or is it full voltage with variable pulse duration.
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  #43  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 10:57
riesvantwisk
Just call me: Ries #46
 
Quito
Ecuador
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John,

the formula of Maris was created by this:
"The number '32' was empirically derived from thermocouple measurements of motor temperatures to find the multiplier that resulted in an 85C motor temperature when the applied voltage was equal to the SQRT of mH and this multiplier." see this thread.

The Gecko drive sets up a a holding amp of 71% 1 second after the last phase step. Later (when it doesn't say) the Gecko change this to a recirculating current to eliminate heath in the motors and gecko. The gecko seems to reduce the Amps according to manual, and not pulse it in one way or the other, from what I understand. A oscilloscope will tell you, but honestly, you should care to much.(I do hear a peeeeeeep after the motors come to a stand still and then after one second it's gone which might indicate it pulses rather generate a DC Amp, again I don't care I handle the gecko drive as a Black (red) box).

The heat comes mostly in place when running the machine, not when it's standing still.

Last, I would run the Steppers as close to the Voltage what Maris his formula recommends minus 5-10% (but never more) to cope with fluctuating line voltages and to make sure you get teh maximum out of your stepper.

First pick the steppers you want to use, then pick your transformer.

Ries
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  #44  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 11:14
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
Gerald,

I agree.

Voltage is the parameter that mostly affects speed and current is the parameter that most affects torque.

When we look at the heat that a motor produces, one thing that is often overlooked is that the very popular PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor, which is rated by Oriental Motor at 3A when wired half-coil, is electrically identical to the PK296-03AA motor and the PK296-F4.5A motor, which are rated at 4.5A by Oriental Motor. Those of us who use the correct current limiting resistor to keep the current at 3A or lower will never see the heat problem that we would have if we use that motor at 4.5A. (I've done extensive testing with a PK296-F4.5A motor and it gets really, really hot when I run it at maximum voltage and maximum current.) In other words, the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor can easily be run at it's maximum voltage because it has been factory derated to 60% of it true current handling ability. Those who use other motors may not realize that if they run their motor at full torque and at full voltage, that their motor might get really, really hot.

Now for a theoretical question: How much speed is enough? Let's pick 600 inches per minute. Just how fast does a motor have to spin to generate that speed? With a 1.5-inch pitch diameter spur gear, a motor geared 7.2:1 would have to spin at 916 RPM. With the smaller 1.25-inch pitch diameter spur gear, that motor would have to spin at 1102 RPM.

If we look at the torque charts for the PK296-03AA motor and compare it to the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor, 1,100 RPM is easily reached with a 24VDC power supply, so using a 29VDC power supply (which is 75% of the maximum computed voltage) would be even better than the chart shows.

Note that with the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor that torque starts taking a nose dive at about 90 RPM and that 90 RPM X 7.2 gear ration = ~650 RPM. So, with 650 RPM being the ideal top speed, the quest is to find how much faster we can push that motor before losing steps. When we start losing steps, we've reached a hard limit even if we're below the motor's maximum speed or voltage. My tests have shown that a stepper motor starts missing steps because of low torque long before it hits its maximum speed. The charts seem to indicate the same thing. With a motor speed of 650 RPM and a 7.2:1 gearbox, and a 1.25-inch pitch diameter spur gear, the constant torque portion of the torque curve peaks at about 350 inches per minute. Anything faster and torque becomes an increasing bigger problem. With the larger 1.5-inch pitch diameter spur gear, 650 RPM gets us to about 425 inches per minute.

Realistically, users who have the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motors should be able to use 350 ipm or 425 ipm as maximum speeds, depending on the size of the spur gear, when cutting and maybe 25% to 50% faster when jogging, depending on the length of their acceleration ramp in Mach 3.

Now let's get really adventuresome and see what would happen if we built a belt-drive transmission with a 4:1 ratio and used a rather small 300 oz*in motor (PK296-F4.5A wired half-coil). The belt-drive would turn that 300 oz*in into 1200 oz*in, or about 160% more torque than the gearbox allows on the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor. Because we have plenty of torque, we can use the larger 1.5-inch pitch diameter spur gear. That motor running at 650 RPM can push an axis via a 4:1 transmission at about 765 inches per minute. With an effective cutting speed of 12-ips the spindle becomes the limiting factor. (My machine can cut at 12-ips, but I limit my spindle to 16,000 RPM which gives me a practical limit of about 8-ips with a reasonable chipload.)
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  #45  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 11:24
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
John and Ries,

You both posted while I was working on my other post.

Geckodrive is in the middle of redesigning its stepper drivers. They have released the G250x (which is now included in the G540 unit) and they have released the G201x. The 'x' model stepper drivers have a different method of current reduction when the motor is idle. Mariss reduces current to 50%, but the recirculating feature keeps the motor and driver cooler than his older designs. The G203v already has some of the features of the newer 'x' design. He will probably modify that stepper driver to incorporate all of the new features when he finishes with his other (older models).

The G201x has an additional feature. It has a dip switch that allows you to 'dial in' the current limiting resistor value without adding an external resistor. It also allows you to use either Active High signals or Active Low signals to drive the motor. That means that it can be used as a drop-in replacement for the G201, the G202 or the G203v. One word of caution about the G201v, it does not have all of the 'protection' features of the G203v. Mariss designed that unit to be purchased mainly by high volume users who have already gone through the testing phase where most of us make silly mistakes that blow up stepper drivers.
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  #46  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 11:55
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokamak View Post
Does this max voltage, wattage, current, heat all come into play when the motors are running full speed or will they heat while holding.
With modern drives, like the Geckodrive, the heating comes while the motors are turning at max. torque. If they are standing still, the drives reduce the torque and there is less heating (the reduced holding torque is acceptable for us).
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  #47  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 12:29
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
Please clarify and/or correct the following statements.

As long as you are NOT running the motors at max torque heating is not a problem.

Using a power supply greater than 32x SQRT(mH) will allow you to run at a torque and speed that can overheat the motors.

If you limit the speed in Mach 3 heating will not be a problem.
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  #48  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 13:33
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
John,
We're dealing with the laws of physics, particularly Ohm's law.

Heat (Watts) is Amps (current) X Voltage. Run a few numbers and you see that heat (Watts) increases as the square of the difference. In other words, it is not linear. If you increase the voltage by 2X, you increase the heat by 4X. For example:

5V / 50 ohms = 0.1 Amps. 0.1A X 5V = 0.5 Watts.
10V / 50 ohms = 0.2 Amps. 0.2A X 10V = 2 Watts.

Stepper motors do NOT act exactly as resistive loads, but they are similar. If you increase the Voltage, you will increase heat. If you increase the load on the motor (current drawn by the motor), you will increase heat.

The solution is simple: Know the limits.

The Oriental Motor PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor can be run all day long at 39VDC and 3A without overheating. That motor is rated by Oriental Motor at 4.5A, so running it at 3Amps at the maximum voltage computed by Mariss' formula will never cause it to get too hot because heat (Watts) = Amps X Voltage.

Running the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor at more than 39VDC MAY work, depending on how much more than 39VDC and how fast you run the motor. At a certain point, the motor will get hot, perhaps too hot.

If you limit the speed in Mach 3, you are keeping the motor from drawing more current (Amps) than is safe for the motor (heat). That is one way to cure the problem. I would rather use a Voltage that is safe and a current limiting resistor that is safe and then allow the motor to run as fast as it can (without losing steps).

The formula posted by Mariss at Geckodrive insures that the motor (if properly manufactured) will not get too hot to drastically shorten the life of the motor. The voltage produced by that formula is the MAXIMUM voltage at which the motor should be run, given the fact that the motor WILL be run at full speed and that the motor with therefore draw FULL current.

I play it safe by reducing either the Voltage or the Current (Amps). Reducing either parameter GREATLY reduces the heat of that motor. Reducing the heat, extends the life of the components. Unless you're part of the military where MAXIMUM limits must be known to safeguard the soldiers, running electronic components at LESS than their maximum is good practice. The PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor is automatically run at less than its maximum when run at 3A. Oriental Motor has factored the torque into its equation that has more to do with the ability of the gearbox to give its expected life than to the ability of the motor to turn those gears. Other motors need to be evaluated on THEIR merits, not as if they are close cousins to the Oriental Motor PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor. Thinking that just because the Oriental Motor product can be run at full voltage, that other motors can be run at full voltage is not using good logic (verified by extensive testing). When the word MAXIMUM is used, be aware that exceeding the MAXIMUM limit carries with it the consequences of failure.
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  #49  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 14:17
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
When I first put the machine to work I will install thermocouples on the motors and get some data.

This machine will not be in a production environment but may be tasked with many hours of 3d cutting.

I think that it is safe to say that the 48v power supply isn't going to smoke my motors as long as I pay attention.
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  #50  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 14:44
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
John,
The laws of physics are not something that we can change to suit our needs. If a motor has an inductance rating of 2.2mH or higher, it can be used with a power supply whose MAXIMUM voltage is 48 VDC. That motor many run at 85 degrees C, but it will be within the temperature limits of the insulation on a class 'B' device.

A transformer costs money, but if I had a doubt about whether my motor could handle the voltage produced by my transformer, I would change the transformer instead of taking a chance.

$100 for a new transformer is a lot of money, but replacing four motors will cost more than $100 dollars.

It's all physics. It;s all simple. The laws that govern us are eternal. If we disrespect those laws, we will learn that 'eternal' includes each of us.
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  #51  
Old Thu 25 February 2010, 20:27
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
John, the practical reality is simple. If your chosen voltage makes the motors too hot, then reduce the current. And that is all there is to it.
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  #52  
Old Fri 26 February 2010, 06:18
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
I think that we all agree that reducing the current going to the motor allows you to use a higher voltage; however, (there's always a 'however') a stepper motor is not a resistive load. A resistive load is seen as a constant, so we can use a very simple formula to see how much to lower the current when we raise the voltage. A stepper motor changes its behavior as the speed goes higher. That's just a warning that if you make a current adjustment and test the motor at low speed, it may still get much hotter than expected when you run it at full speed.

Here's the formula: Watts = Voltage X Amps.

Here's how to use it:

1. Find the recommended maximum voltage for the motor

32 X SQRT( Inductance) = Maximum Voltage

2. Find the resistive Watts that would be produced at that voltage

Maximum Voltage X Motor's Amp rating = Watts

3. Find the maximum resistive current that you can use with the higher voltage

Watts / Higher Voltage = Reduced Amps

4. Compute the value of the current limiting resistor (for a G203v stepper driver)

47 X Reduced Amps / ( 7 - Reduced Amps) = Resistor value


Let's use a real world example.

We'll use the PK296-F4.5A motor that draws up to 4.5A and has 1.5mH inductance when wired half-coil. We'll assume that we want to use a 60VDC power supply.

1. Maximum voltage

32 X SQRT(1.5) = 39 Volts MAXIMUM

2. Compute the watts

39 V X 4.5 Amps = 175 Watts

3. Compute the maximum allowed amps at the higher voltage

175 Watts / 60 V = 2.9A

4. Finally, compute the value of the current limiting resistor to use with a Gecko G203v stepper driver

47 X 2.9 / ( 7 - 2.9 ) = 33K, 1/4W resistor

In theory, you'll end up with a motor that runs at 60V with about 60% of the torque that it would have had at its ideal maximum voltage.

NOTE: I do not recommend using a power supply that produces more than the maximum computed voltage for the motor. If you have already purchased a power supply that is the wrong voltage (too high), then you can try this solution, but torque will suffer. Torque greatly affects the cutting force so your depth of cut may have to be reduced - sometimes dramatically.
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  #53  
Old Fri 26 February 2010, 09:20
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Mike, I am not suggesting that a 39V motor can be made to work on a 60V supply by dropping the current. I am saying that there is no need to drop the 39V by 25% in fear of possible heat. I say to size transformer within about 2V of the 39V, keep an eye on the heat, and then drop current if really necessary.
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  #54  
Old Fri 26 February 2010, 09:30
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
I need to clarify something. (It's probably already been written by me or by someone else, but I have almost zero short term memory, so please put up with my rambling.)

The PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor from Oriental Motor that many use is rated at just 3A by Oriental Motor. That rating is artificial. It is NOT the motor's true upper limit. That motor could be run at 4.5A (half-coil) before it achieved its full potential. Oriental Motor lists the current rating at 3A because of the gear box that it attaches to that motor. The gear box was not designed to be used at the level of torque that the PK296A2A would produce if it were allowed to pull 4.5A.

Those who run the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor at 40VDC might think that those of us who write about 80C temperatures are crazy because their motor probably runs at 50C or slightly higher when they really, really push the motor hard. That's just Ohm's law working in their favor. They're only producing 120 Watts when that motor would really be producing 180 Watts if it were run at 4.5A. (I'm cheating a little here because a stepper motor is not a resistive load, but the principle behind the example is more important than 100% scientific accuracy.)

If you use the PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor, use a 35VDC to 40VDC power supply and enjoy the relative coolness of the motor.

If you use any other motor, play it safe and do the calculations before you buy or build the power supply. When the power supply is properly matched, you get optimum torque and optimum speed. If the power supply voltage is too low, speed will suffer. If the power supply voltage is too high, torque will suffer.

My tests have shown that losing speed, particularly the ability to spin the motor at over 1,000 RPM is not detrimental for MOST uses of a CNC router. On the other hand, reducing torque is something that will directly affect the depth of cuts and the number of passes that you have to make.

One last comment on reducing torque. The smaller (single stack) 34-size motors are usually rated at around 300 oz*in of torque. With a 4:1 belt-drive, they are excellent motors for a MechMate. However, reducing the torque of that motor by using a power supply with excessive voltage can easily reduce the torque from that motor to LESS than the torque provided by a 23-size motor. I think that we all agree that a 23-size motor is too small for a MechMate. But, remember that you can use a 10-tooth XL pulley on a 23-size motor's 1/4-inch shaft. With a 72-tooth pulley on the drive shaft, you would have a 7.2:1 ratio. The 23-size motor's 190 oz*in of torque would be multiplied to over 1,300 oz*in compared to a 34-size motor with a 4:1 belt-drive that would develop about 800 oz*in of torque if its current had been reduced because of a mismatched power supply.

None of this is rocket science and many of us do our shopping on E-Bay or at the surplus store. In the case of building a MechMate, if you're short on money, I would advise getting a temporary second job for a few weeks so that you can buy good quality motors, drivers and power supplies. You won't be disappointed with good quality electronics.
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  #55  
Old Fri 26 February 2010, 09:49
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
I can't remember where I picked this up, it is not as simple in replacing stepper motors of different frame size base on torque value. Bigger stepper motors stop (decelerate) faster then smaller stepper motor, this can be a crucial factor in some designs.
Hope this helps.
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  #56  
Old Fri 19 March 2010, 08:31
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
Belt Drives

Set up the pinion shafts for my belt drives. Decided on 30T pinion since I have the extra torque of the Keling 280 motor. Instead of set screws I opted for roll pins. If they give me problems I can always enlarge to set screws.

Belt drive design and plates are from Leo.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Center drill pinion.JPG (45.0 KB, 992 views)
File Type: jpg Drill Pinion.JPG (44.1 KB, 990 views)
File Type: jpg Press roll pins.JPG (54.6 KB, 991 views)
File Type: jpg Leos Belt Drive w Keling280.JPG (18.9 KB, 989 views)
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  #57  
Old Fri 19 March 2010, 12:08
isladelobos
Just call me: Ros
 
Canary Islands
Spain
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Nice !!!
More make process pics please !!
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  #58  
Old Tue 23 March 2010, 07:57
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
Monrovia Inventory

Have all of my belt reducer parts and motors.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Belt Reducer Hardware 1.JPG (224.4 KB, 940 views)
File Type: jpg Belt Reducer Hardware 2.JPG (201.9 KB, 940 views)
File Type: jpg Belt Reducer Hardware 3.JPG (158.1 KB, 934 views)
File Type: jpg Heli Coils.JPG (160.1 KB, 937 views)
File Type: jpg Motors.JPG (128.8 KB, 937 views)
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  #59  
Old Tue 23 March 2010, 08:00
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
Received wheels from Rick
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  #60  
Old Tue 23 March 2010, 08:05
Tokamak
Just call me: John #121
 
Monrovia (ca)
United States of America
Received my electrical goodies, power supply and control.

I'm working on my order list for the steel parts for the frame and rails.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Electrical Goodies.JPG (184.0 KB, 938 views)
File Type: jpg Power and control.JPG (223.5 KB, 936 views)
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