Are we getting swamped by non-MechMate builders?

[Gerald D]

I feel that we are getting too many new members who are actually not building MechMates, but who want advice from our community. ie. We are dissolving into another CNCzone situation. Please discuss . . . . .

[Kobus_Joubert]

Not too sure, but I had comments from people trying to LOOK around, but if they did not register, they could not see the pictures....maybe this contributes to the problem. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Greolt]

I completely understand and support your desire to keep this forum on the topic it is provided for.

You run it and fund it for Mechmate builders and I think visitors need to understand that.

The internet is such a big and diverse thing. Many users get accustomed to thinking all forums are sort of public property and they have the right to use them as they see fit.

I am thinking that you need a statement that sets out that purpose and the fact that there are many other places to ask general questions. Couched in polite terms of course.

This needs to be seen especially by new visitors and probably all the time by everyone. People quickly forget.

Greg

[sailfl]

Gerald,

I know it takes a while for people to make up their mind that they want to start a build. I know I was one of those people for a long time. I also don't want to see this site turn into a CNCZone which I don't think will happen because you prevent new people from getting off on a tangent with a different kind of machine. I think that Greg might have a good suggestion. Welcome to the site but this site is for building MechMates.

[Gerald D]

From my perspective, I get too many PM's (and emails) from people who are clearly not building MM's and purely want opinions or advice. Those are easily ignored. But, sometimes we see these people on the forum as well. . . . starting a new thread under the first "General" they see . . . .indicating that they havn't spent time getting the feel of our forum before firing away with their questions. (would these folk read notices??). In these cases I mostly just quietly delete their post and membership, sometimes only move the post to the right forum area, but I'm getting tired of that effort.

Kobus, I don't mind the folk joining to see the pictures, or have a peep at the plans. But then I want them to do it quietly and not tie us up with answering their questions about their Nema23 motors for example, or linear bearings, or linear toothed belts, or beefing up their wooden gantries, etc. etc.

My feeling is that we may have lost some members because the posting has wandered too wide.

There was a time when I enjoyed reading every post and trying to help out where I can, but these days I look at the list of new posts wondering if there is going to be anything interesting or challenging.

[sailfl]

Gerald,

We don't see all the work that it takes to maintain the forum. We know you spend a lot of time answering questions and giving your excellent advise.

So thighten things down to restrict those non MechMate builders. I think that you can warn people that want to ask questions that are non MechMate build related that their life on this forum will be short lived then kick them off. CNCZone is a great site but that is a good place for the wood structure machines and copier motors.

I tried CNCZone for my build. As soon as I found this site, I knew this was the place for me and the machine I wanted to build.

[vishnu]

Yes i personally did not start posting until i made up my mind that i will start building MM. I think we keep the MM site lively for only people who would really build the machines. We have still a lot to go with the MM & wood working industry. Answering to general questions can really be frustrating and cannot be continued on a long run. I think we have enough machine builds for people to know of A to Z on what a MM is and what can be done using it. We would rather focus on helping people building new machines which would benefit our community. For general Q&A i think CNCzone has a lot to offer even for the dummies. Drifting away would rather spoil the quality of this site. Its better to have a general thread so even unregistered users can post and ask questions before they can really register like a Q&A post. But we are not putting brakes on those who really aspire to build one & want to ask before they can start.

The MM site is like a close knitted family today, we have to keep up the tradition to have quality for the future generation, filtering out during registration can be made mandatory.

[hennie]

And get the new members starting to build to put pic`s up of their progress as a pic is a lot more self explaining that might keep the pm`s and e-mails down as it will only show MM`s ,if you can`t read at least look at the pic`s.We have not even started exploring the limits of the MechMate.

[PEU]

Im not building a Mechmate but I plan to build one, in the meantime I try to help with areas I know something about, but I mostly read.

I can feel your pain, growing pain, situation won't improve as long the forum keeps increasing its popularity, people tend not to read or search for answers themselves, thats an internet fact...

Maybe you can appoint some regulars as moderators to help you with the home cleaning/ordering.

[Jayson]

I totally agree with the above comments. There was a time when I frequented cnczone and have a few threads there. I have had knowledge of the Mechmate from the time the announcement was made on cnczone but this was not the forum to be posting in until I decided to build. When I have questions that definately don't fit here I post them over there. This forum needs to be kept for the builders or those contributing with valuable information that relates to our type machines.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Jayson.

[Richards]

At this point, enough machines have been built to prove to anyone interested that Gerald's mechanical design works (and works very well). It looks to me that anyone with a desire to build a machine could build a MechMate - if they follow the plans and read through the posts to see how others have built their machines.

The electronic package is still a problem with many, but, it seems to me, that enough *standardized* control boxes have been built to allow almost anyone worldwide to build a workable controller.

I would suggest that it's time to 'tighten' up the forum. Limit questions that show that the poster has not taken the time to study the site. When someone asks for help to do something that deviates from the published plans, require that person to give a valid reason AND require that person to offer a viable solution. (I learned NOT to ask questions unless I had a possible solution when I lived in France forty years ago. Whenever I asked a question, I was asked to submit my solution BEFORE I was given help of any kind.) If a new poster can show that he has studied the forum, that he has a good understanding of the process, and that he has a viable reason to deviate from the plans, perhaps his solution would benefit others.

Electronics, in particular, could be locked down. There have been controllers built using Gecko G201/G202 stepper drivers. There have been controllers built using Gecko G203v stepper drivers. There have been controllers built using the Gecko G540 unit. And there have been controllers built using Motion King motors and drivers. As far as motors go, most have decided to use the Oriental Motor PK296A2A-SG7.2 geared motors. Some have decided to use non-geared motors and a few have decided to add belt drives to their non-geared motors. E-stop switches have been addressed. Limit switches have been addressed. Proximity sensors have been addressed. Relays and contactors to drive spindles, routers and accessories have been addressed. If someone wants to do something different, he should buy the parts, perform the tests and then report on this success or failure. (As much as I enjoy build control boxes and testing stepper components, I don't have the time or the resources to test every possible combination.)

Prototyping a new design can be expensive and problematic. Using a proven design with proven components (both mechanical and electrical) eliminates much of the unnecessary expense and most of the frustration.

Personally, I think that enough research and development has been done that 'experimentation' should be limited to its own (small) section and that the bulk of the site should be free of CNCZone type questions.

[MattyZee]

Gerald, I think Kobus meant that if people didn't have to register to look at the pics, then its less likely they'll post a non-MM related question. If they register purely to get access to the pics, then its just too easy to shoot off a new thread/question.

Not to get this thread off track, but have you considered turning this site into a wiki? Then MM builders can contribute and its not as easy for nonMM poeple to steer off course. Just a thought.

[jhiggins7]

Gerald,

I think this is a special, almost UNIQUE, Forum.

It saddens me that it has become an unpleasant chore for you to work through the "chaff" to get to the part that still gives you pleasure.

If there are ways to change the design to reduce the "chores", those would be welcome changes. As an example, could you filter PM's to you to only a subset of Forum members, or even remove PM's from your profile.

Maybe, as Pablo has suggested, you can off-load some of the "chores" to other volunteers. I would volunteer. I'm sure others would, as well. I don't know the "mechanics" of this, so I don't know if it's a lot more work for you to set it up.

Like many others have said, I personally "lurked" for over a year before I started to build. And like others have said, I limited my POSTS during that time because I felt that I should have something to contribute to the "MECHMATE FORUM" before getting into the discussion. Also, when I first started reading the Forum, I noticed a tone that discouraged frivolous, neophyte questions that could be answered by just spending time going through the FORUM.

Gerald, we stand-by to help if we can.

Regards,
John

[bradm]

Gerald, I think I'm starting to believe that you're merely a single exceptional human. For a while I was convinced you must be a team of five hiding behind one persona.

I think the most important point is to avoid burnout of any key community member, so you should do whatever makes you happy.

I had a strong visceral reaction against closing up any part of the forums, but after consideration, I like Mike's suggestion to limit the wild experimentation questions to a single section. Good ideas can readily be copied out of that section once vetted, and bad ideas can be deleted mercilessly.

[Gerald D]

John, I am not so concerned that it is sometimes less pleasant for me to read all the posts, I am more concerned that the rest of you may also be feeling this way. . . . . . which makes me want to filter more so that most people find the forum easy to follow.

One of the reasons for starting this thread was to judge whether I can relax the filtering a bit. It may well be that I am the only one bothered by it.

For a lighter moment, here is the full text of a mail received recently (from a member that had registered a couple of hours before):

Hi!
I saw pictures of cnc machine on your web site. Can you (if you have) send me some larger pictures becouse on web are so small. My e-mail is *****(blanked)

I' sorry for my anglish. I hope you'll understand me.

Have a nice day and thaks for your answer!

I wonder what this guy really expected of me!

[jhiggins7]

Gerald,

This is what prompted my response...plus reading what others had said...

Originally Posted by Gerald D

There was a time when I enjoyed reading every post and trying to help out where I can, but these days I look at the list new posts wondering if there is going to be anything interesting or challenging.

We appreciate your housekeeping. It is especially helpful when you re-organize similar content from various threads into it's own thread.

However, I would wade through some clutter if it would reduce your work-load and return the Forum to being "interesting and challenging" to you. Alternatively, I would be willing to help "police" the FORUM to reduce the workload on you.

[Gerald D]

Mike, you raise the issue of locking down threads/topics, and I have toyed with the idea of locking some of the technical (non-personal) threads. In general, I don't like locked threads because we sometimes pick up interesting nuggets of info months later. On most forums it is a no-no to post in an old thread, but here I welcome it if it adds value.

I think the "sticky" threads, permanently at the top of the indexes, are a sufficient "lock", because that prevents a "newbie thread" from being on top of an index.

I recognise that some areas of building a MechMate need more discussion, because we havn't seen conclusive solutions. (eg. dust collection). There is also the aspect of different practices around the world which require different solutions to the more tried and tested. Locking down threads would exclude those who don't have access to the same components/resources as the rest of us. This is why I am sometimes rude to people in affluent countries and very patient with foreigners battling with English from less developed countries. (Please forgive me ). It actually strikes me now that the time wasters are usually the ones spoilt-for-choice . . . . . yup, locked threads is the solution for them!

[Gerald D]

John, your offer of assistance is very much appreciated and you are probably going to find yourself as a moderator before supper. Your help in running the build history file is already a fine job!

[louisseville]

Hello All,

I own a small cabinet shop and I was ready to build a 72x168, when a family tradgedy hit in November 2008. I have spent my time split between the shop, home and farm, all the while studying- I have learned a tremendous amount, while I have been waiting build. When a couple of more ducks are lined up, I will let it fly. I own a Biesse Rover 321 (cnc) and a servopack failure led me decide to build my own flat table router, and the fact that the research involved will allow me or another shop employee to repair it quickly.

I had a tremendous amount of questions, but after reading a past post made to a lazy builder by Gerald on etiquette- I have found the answers here and @ shopbottools for the build I need. Some of the posts and questions that I read seem to be from very lazy builders that are not willing to go the extra mile of research.

I think a terms and conditions needs to be in place that you must check boxes to get your log in, that verify you understand the responsibilities, and answers will not be handed over. Some of the questions just absolutely blow me away, or the requests for a spread sheet on steel purchase. Anyone that is a Mechmate Builder needs to be responsible enough not to hand over too much information that severely handicaps the new builder and make him or her too reliant on the community.

I also think Gerald, you need to start charging for your answers that are completely out of the scope of the plans you published. Perhaps a link and a flat rate. I know this site has to be a burden on you @ times. I really appreciate your expertise and your time.

[jhiggins7]

Gerald,

I have the highest respect for the way the Forum (with your guidance) interacts with the international community. It's one of my favorite aspects of the Forum. I take great pride, when I talk about the MechMate, in pointing out that the design is from South Africa and that MechMates are being built around the world!

I'll be happy to serve as a moderator if you want me to.

Regards,
John

[sailfl]

Gerald,

I would be happy to function as a moderator if you want more.

[rayditutto]

i agree with what appears to be the underlying consensus. . .
This is a highly valuable site/forum with a signal to noise ratio second to none.
The reason for this quality is the well defined focus as to the purpose of this site (building mechmates)
If someone is unwilling to read before PMing or posting then they lack the commitment to build.
An acceptable response is "you're welcome to read the forums, you will find much of value there"

Cheers,
Robin
(mostly lurking - but i like to think i understand much more than i did several years ago)

[711man]

As a frequent reader of the MechMate forum I don’t believe that, “we (are) getting swamped by non-MechMate builders?” But I do believe there are irrelevant post’s that show up on the forum. It is very apparent when the site and forum are opened the business of this site and forum is 100% MechMate. But not 100% of the readers opening the site will intuitively understand that fact even after reading the site for a while.

Gerald, I believe you should have trusted moderators that are charged with some of the daily housekeeping. I believe a good moderator could tell whether a member is a serious builder or not. Perhaps the moderator could build a simple matrix. Has the member downloaded the drawings? Does the member talk of ordering steel, or ordering motors, electrical controls, etc,? Has the member started a build log? And if the moderator is not satisfied that the new member is a serious builder then he can simply prune the irrelevant post relieving you of the chore.

I would like to nominate my friend JHiggins as moderator. I have spoken with John several times and have visited with him at his home and shop to see his beautifully built MechMate. He has superb work ethic and is very knowledgably on the MM design intent and the build process. John is a continuing asset to the forum and to many builders including myself, and I believe he can help you further.

NOW, back to building my MM!!

Regards,

BillT

[Gerald D]

A couple of times, "moderators" have been mentioned above. For those familiar with other forums, it might bring to mind a sort of elite membership of guys who "police" what gets posted. Let's discard that thought immediately!

We have had a couple of moderators here since 2006 already, but they have done such a good job that nobody noticed them, and that's how it should be. However, I've always told them that their job is simply to keep the forum free of spam and obnoxious content. I've never made it clear what more they can do to help me. So, as of yesterday, I made an area of the forum visible to only them, and have started explaining to them how to change thread titles, move posts etc. Preferably, all of that stays in the background and does not detract from the main purpose of the forum.

I think a key factor in reducing the number of posters who don't understand this forum's unique style is to keep it simple and easy to read. A big part of this is clear thread titles that accurately reflect the contents of the thread - they must know that an attractive title gives the content they expect. Non-relevant threads need to be archived - a "newbie" must see only a few threads that deliver.

And the colour scheme and logo is also important here . . . .
If a "newbie" only sees only blue machines with the MechMate logo, he/she must surely realise that his puny little tabletop engraver has no place here!

[Gerald D]

Originally Posted by BillT

As a frequent reader of the MechMate forum I don’t believe that, “we (are) getting swamped by non-MechMate builders?”

Thanks Bill, it is reassuring to hear that everybody doesn't see it as a big problem.

[domino11]

Gerald,
This forum is always a pleasure to read. I think it still has the proper focus, no doubt to your hard work.

[Lex]

I wouldn't change a thing on this forum. It is focused and that is whats important.
I have confidence in Gerald's ability to sort the 'short cutters' out in the correct way. Which every way that is.

[oldhack]

Originally Posted by Gerald D

I feel that we are getting too many new members who are actually not building MechMates, but who want advice from our community. ie. We are dissolving into another CNCzone situation. Please discuss . . . . .

I am on Joes 4X4 forum and you can only get on there if you buy his plans. I am using his plans as my guideline to build mine. I am on here for ideas and information to help me create my "masterpiece" (grin) I think maybe you could place a disclaimer at the "signup" that this site is specifically for mechmate builders and refer them to cncZone for information pertaining to all other cnc projects. I enjoy this site and what people have to say. This is my first machine and from here, ill build the mechmate when i feel more confident in what im doing, so all i learn will be valuable when i build the mechmate. Most newbies just dont know where to start, so referring them to cncZone would certainly help. Just my opinion

[Kobus_Joubert]

Hi Oldhack, on this forum, with these plans you don't even have to use this information to design and build your MASTERPIECE. This thing is proven and if you build it AS-IS, you end up with a MASTERPIECE anyway. Just look at it ...I did it and the numbers are climbing steadily. Good luck.

[Gerald D]

Oldhack, I really have no problem with other builders reading (or posting) on this site, as long as they "give" and don't "take". Look at Greolt and Richards as examples - they don't own MechMates but they "give" very valuable advice.

My goal is to have every thread that is ever displayed on an index thread here, to be good reading for someone building a MechMate.