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  #91  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 05:12
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Gerald,

I think Nils was talking about a laser pointer like Greg (Down Under) has set up on his machine.
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  #92  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 06:12
Greg J
Just call me: Greg #13
 
Hagerman, New Mexico
United States of America
Doug mentioned it awhile back on another thread, but I think it's worth repeating.

Mach has a great tutorial video on coordinate systems that explains this homing / zeroing / etc.

http://www.artsoftcontrols.com/Video...elections.html
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  #93  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 06:23
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
The crosshair laser is only fed with a battery.
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  #94  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 06:36
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Gerald,

I respect your knowledge and your design. But Greg Greolt has a cheap less than $5.00 crosshair laser that he uses on his machine that he turns on and off with a button on a Mach3 page. I don't believe it is powered by a battery though I am sure there are battery versions out there.

I am getting the feeling that you don't like this idea so you will not hear any more about from me.
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  #95  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 06:46
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
My impression was that you need to stand close to the laser to line it up with a mark on the job - that's when you just switch it on. Some of these lasers have the battery and switch built in (keyring type, board pointer, whatever, (shooters pistol type?)). Using mach to turn it on seems like an overkill.
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  #96  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 08:22
ekdenton
Just call me: Ed #8
 
Alamogordo, NM
United States of America
Sorry guys I posted and deleted the question above that Gerald reposted. Reason for deleting is that I wanted to think about it some more before asking that. Since I posted that Sean has answered it for me.

I was seeing the layout with the three relays NO and the sensors NO. What I failed to think about yesterday was when the sensors are powered up and see the rail the go NC and the relays go NC, which closes the open circut from common to pin #11. The when any sensor trips it opens the closed circut giving a signal to the BOB.

I get it now. I knew Sean had his working and it was something simple that I just wasn't seeing or grasping yet. Thanks for the replies and explaining better.

I see exactly what you are saying also Gerald, It would be hard to have the same thickness and size material placed in the exact same place every time, and if your memory is like mine it would be easy to ruin alot of material or break a bit or worse by not manually setting it for each project.

I think I will use the sensors but for more for safety than anything else.
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  #97  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 10:44
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
I agree Gerald. I worry that we may be making the MM electronics too complicated. That may discourage new builders from taking the leap and later on when my machine breaks and this info is no longer in my head, it will be harder to diagnose. At most, I would use simple push on/push off switch mounted on the car to turn on\off the laser pointer and some wires to supply power. Better yet, run it off the battery.
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  #98  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 11:11
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
http://www.uie.com/articles/simplicity/

I hate batteries as much as the next guy, but we can't design an input to a laser pointer if we havn't got a clue what it needs. I am fairly confident that a 12V DC supply to the gantry could be converted for use by the laser pointer and that a simple local switch could control it.
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  #99  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 12:57
revved_up
Just call me: Craig
 
Hartland, MI
United States of America
bump

Quote:
Originally Posted by revved_up View Post
Sean, where does the +-12vdc come from?
I guess what I'm asking is did you add another output to your power supply or did you draw power from somewhere else?

Last edited by revved_up; Thu 06 March 2008 at 12:59..
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  #100  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 12:59
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
He gets it from his Antek supply
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  #101  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 16:11
revved_up
Just call me: Craig
 
Hartland, MI
United States of America
how many times can you tap from the same 12v output? I still have to order my power supply so maybe I should ask for two 12v outputs instead of one.
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  #102  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 16:31
krymis
Just call me: Chris
 
williamsport
United States of America
I don't know if this has been cover but here is an idea for switches that works great. I use them on my minimills the ih mill, my minilathes and my
12x36 lathe. not one problem amongst them. It is an easy setup with common parts.

http://www.industrialhobbies.com/how...limits_pt1.htm

http://www.industrialhobbies.com/how...limits_pt2.htm

http://www.industrialhobbies.com/how...limits_pt3.htm

the working part http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...me=QVA11134-ND
and last is a post about the setup at cnczone http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...=optical+limit
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  #103  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 19:09
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
hey guys
been working a little late and saw the comments. The 12v comes from my antek transformer. I ordered it with 12v 5v and 56v taps all voltages are redistributed thru dinnectors power blocks for use. Mainly to preserve wiring standards from gecko. The 12v is used for the pmdx and now the prox's. 5v for the ncpod later.

Ed, I am so glad the wiring use finally "clicked" in your head. Don't hesitate to email me with any other questions. I am glad to help those that are trying to build the machine.

The relays and simple wiring was really easy. On mm #2 I will relocate a wiring block and power distribution to the gantry. It will greatly simplify my big blue box.
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  #104  
Old Thu 06 March 2008, 22:22
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Chris, your switches could be technically okay, but they are not readily available off-the-shelf around the world, so I can't include them in the design. Do you have dust seals where the rod enters the housing? Also, we would loose the jump-the-rail-protection that the proximity switch gives us.
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  #105  
Old Fri 07 March 2008, 05:58
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
Looking back at post #70 where Gerald posted a drawing that showed various input devices connected to a box as well as an output connection going to the control box, we still need to define the STATE of each input and we need to define which output line each input uses.

By STATE, I mean the Active State of the device. For instance, the State of an Normally Open proximity switch when used with the MechMate would be Normally Closed or Active, since the usual condition of the proximity switch is to sense metal except when a limit has been reached (the hole in the metal). So, if I knew that there were going to be four proximity switches on the machine and that all of the proximity switches would normally be turned on and that all of the proximity switches were NPN signal type, I could easily design a circuit that monitored the proximity switches (or relays to which the proximity switches were connected) and then generate the proper signal for one of the signal lines going to the control box (pin 11, 12, 13, or 15, or even the E-stop signal line - if desired).

The same goes for the push-buttons. Are they Normally Closed or are they Normally Open? (Normally Closed is safer because a broken or faulty push-button would be detected as the machine powers up). When they are active, do they give a 12V signal or do they give a GND signal (0V)? A circuit designer would say that a switch giving out a 12V signal when it is active is SOURCING and that a switch that is at 0V when active is SINKING.

If I were building the most simple and the most robust interface, I would use a series design for the proximity switches, just like Sean's in post #67. I would use Normally Closed push-button switches connected in series for each of the different push-button circuits. The zero plate would be a Normally Open configuration, because that would be the most straight-forward. By wiring the proximity sensors in series (through relays), if any sensor 'detected' a hole, the input state for the sensors would go from 0V to 12V, signaling that a limit had been reached. In the same manner, if any one of the Red push-button switches was pushed, the circuit would be 'broken' and the input signal for the Red circuit would go from 0V to 12V, signaling that at least one of the Red switches was active. The Zero plate would be just the opposite. When contact was made between the plate and the cutter, the input signal would go from 12V to 0V, signaling that contact had been made.

Of course, using more complex circuitry, any input (switch or sensor) could be either High or Low, On or OFF and gates inside the box could be jumpered so that the correct signal was sent to the control box, but that would require much more circuitry and it would also give the builder many more possibilities to mess up by jumpering something backwards.

So, who wants to define the STATE of each device?
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  #106  
Old Sat 08 March 2008, 05:32
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richards View Post
So, who wants to define the STATE of each device?
I'll take a stab at that too. Unfortunately, I'm going to be tied up with work for at least a couple of weeks so I probably won't have a rapid response.
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  #107  
Old Sat 08 March 2008, 21:33
ekdenton
Just call me: Ed #8
 
Alamogordo, NM
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by revved_up View Post
how many times can you tap from the same 12v output? I still have to order my power supply so maybe I should ask for two 12v outputs instead of one.


Craig, I will take a crack at answering your question.
You can run as many things as you want off the VR as long as the max current draw from the items that you are running off the VR stay under the current rating of the VR. Say if it is a 1amp VR, add up the current draw from everything you will connect to it and it needs to be under the 1 amp. If I remember correct from the PMDX literature I read, the PMDX draws a maximum of 300mA (if this is wrong someone who knows will correct me) I don't know what the proximity sensors draw, they also have some small LED's. Check the total amps they draw and add the 300mA that the PMDX draws, then check the amp rating on the VR.

EXAMPLE:
PMDX 300mA (check to make sure)
Proximity Sensors ??? maybe 120mA (just a guess check to make sure) X4=480mA
Laser pointer ??? guessing 100mA (check to make sure)

880mA would be 120mA under.

If you were to add an array of superbright LED's (like I want to do) under the gantry to light the work area, then you may need an alternate source of power. The superbright LED's draw 100mA, so 20 of those under the gantry would draw 2 amps, but would brighten the work area very nice.
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  #108  
Old Sun 09 March 2008, 06:14
revved_up
Just call me: Craig
 
Hartland, MI
United States of America
Thanks ED, Thats what I like about this forum, Lots of help!! yours was actually the 3rd answer I received thanks for looking out.
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  #109  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 08:48
ekdenton
Just call me: Ed #8
 
Alamogordo, NM
United States of America
I have the proximity sensors now and they draw 200mA each and I checked the PMDX and it draws 200mA max. So if the redimade antek supply has a 1amp voltage regulator on it, you will be at 1 amp if you use 4 proximity sensors. So if you add anything else you will probably need an alternate source of power.

I also added a question in the power supply about this subject (moved back here):

"Gerald, this brings up a question to you, for those who are using the pre-made voltage supply from Antek, with the Voltage regulator to run the PMDX. If they also run 4 of the proximity sensors also, that will be using up 1amp of avalilable current for the motors. Will adding the sensors in addition to the PMDX be any reason for alarm?

I am using the 2amp 12v supply from factorymation, but thought it would be a good question to talk about."
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  #110  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 09:38
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
What is making your proxies draw 200 mA? Did you measure it?

Here is a typical spec sheet:
http://factorymation.info/sensors/Inductive.pdf

They draw less than 15 milliamp by themselves (if they were connected directly to the PMDX for eaxample), so the 4 proxies by themselves are extremely light on current consumption.

However, they can drive up to 200mA each, and will do that if you have a fairly "big" relay on each one, that is mostly in the energised condition.

So, to keep the current consumption down, either:
- drive logic chips instead of relays
- if using relays, use low-current relays
- if using relays, consider using them mostly non-energised.

Alternatively, size for a bigger power supply.
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  #111  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 09:58
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
If you are using this relay:
http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/T...23079A1003B301

which has a 1029 ohm coil resistance, it will draw only 11.6 milliamp at 12V. Therefore, 4 proxies and 4 of those relays together will be close to 0.1 amp, which is no cause for concern.
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  #112  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 10:00
ekdenton
Just call me: Ed #8
 
Alamogordo, NM
United States of America
No I didn't measure, just going off what the data sheet that came with them said that they draw.

They do have four small LED's though.
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  #113  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 10:13
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
I think you might have misread the data sheet At that sort of current they would be getting quite warm . . . .

They have the ability to drive that much current, but you shouldn't be using them near the limit for this application.
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  #114  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 10:27
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
See post #32 in this thread for info on a relay choice
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  #115  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 10:32
ekdenton
Just call me: Ed #8
 
Alamogordo, NM
United States of America
Maybe you are right. Seems like alot considering the size of the LED's. A small LED draws 20mA and these look like about 3mm.

Here is what was on the wiring diagram....exactly the way they wrote it.

10-30VDC I=200mA

Usually it will give a max current draw but that was all that it said.
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  #116  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 11:19
ekdenton
Just call me: Ed #8
 
Alamogordo, NM
United States of America
Those relays look good, thanks Gerald.

Looking at those relays though brings me back to the original point or question though, for those who are using the voltage regulator and also the sensors. Not trying to be a pest about this or anything just trying to make sure that those using the voltage regulator off the transformer are aware of the current draw when adding additional circutry like the sensors and relays.

I didn't even think about the draw from the relays and they will be drawing anytime the sensor sees rail to keep the contacts closed. The ones at mouser draw 140mA each.
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  #117  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 11:41
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Doodling a little PC board for relays for the proxies:


The top relay is for the occasion when the second X-gantry proxy is used in the current Mach squaring method.
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  #118  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 11:44
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
ED, check that Mouser spec again - it is 140 milliWatt.

Of course your point is valid - the power supply must be sized to feed all the consumers.

A 300VA supply can feed about 2000 of those relays if it has nothing else to do.
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  #119  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 11:54
ekdenton
Just call me: Ed #8
 
Alamogordo, NM
United States of America
oops your right Gerald it is mW rather than mA.

Nice drawing I will save that. What cad program are you using for drawings like that?
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  #120  
Old Sat 15 March 2008, 12:15
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
AutoCad2000 LT
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