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  #91  
Old Mon 14 September 2009, 08:00
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Nils,

Those are the motors that I'm using. I don't recall resetting the debounce nor why I would have done that. If I remember correctly, I set the kernal at that setting because my testing showed that the computer would allow it. I'd love to cut some solid surface material for you but I don't have any. I'm sure you could cut 3/4" mdf at 60 ipm in one pass since you are using the same motors and router as me. However, I can hear it slow the router motor at points in the process. I'm sure Sean will be rolling his eyes when he reads this and I know I'll probably have to replace the bearings in the router a little sooner but that's okay. Oh yeah, and that single pass cut also included a sheet of .030" aluminum.
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  #92  
Old Mon 14 September 2009, 14:36
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Doug, I would never roll my eyes! LOL. With the right bit and feed rate, not a big deal. Of course, you have about a billion CFM of air rushing past your bit on the way to the cyclone to help keep the cutting area clean and cool!
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  #93  
Old Tue 15 September 2009, 06:54
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Nils,
With the new settings in mach, do you think you are past the rough angle cutting now? Or are you still tweaking. Myabe some comparison pics of the differences?
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  #94  
Old Tue 15 September 2009, 08:06
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Heath,

I still am having a problem. This morning, I increased my router speed because I had lowered for some thing else and I cut a straight piece and things were smooth. In fact, I pulled a Doug and cut the .5" solid surface material with a .25" bit at 400 IPM and it was very smooth. Less I forget, I cut it in one pass!

I thought this is a very good sign. So I cut my Diamond pattern and the chatter was there. The Mach people are thinking that it might be bit deflection.

I am not doing any thing else until I have received and installed the new ABEC 7 bearings that I have ordered for my router. I want to see what affect that has on the results. Since I already have 4-5 thousands runout with my router. I think the new bearings will tighten things up.

I will be happy to post my results with pictures.
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  #95  
Old Tue 15 September 2009, 08:11
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Thanks Nils,
I am sure your outcome will be very userfull to everyone. Have you changed the router bearing before? I am eager to hear how it goes for you.
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  #96  
Old Tue 15 September 2009, 08:11
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
No, I have not change the router bearings before.
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  #97  
Old Tue 15 September 2009, 19:15
Greg J
Just call me: Greg #13
 
Hagerman, New Mexico
United States of America
Nils,

Paco has a great site/blog detailing bearing removal for the Milwaukee router.

http://pacosarea.blogspot.com/search/label/router
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  #98  
Old Tue 15 September 2009, 19:24
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Thanks Greg,
I was just looking for that for Nils.
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  #99  
Old Wed 16 September 2009, 03:36
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Greg J and Heath,

Thanks for the paco site. I have seen his site before but it will come in handy when I replace my bearings.

I am replacing my bearing with a better rated bearing than with the standard factory bearing. The bearings they use are not rated as high as the highest motor setting on the router. Chopper suggested and it made sense to me to use bearings that are rated higher. The lower larger bearing, I am replacing with a ABEC 7 rated bearing and the top bearing is rated for 34,000 RPM. Which is much higher than the router can handle. It has a higher tolerance and should help with runout.

I will take some pictures and post my progress.

Thanks again for the info.

Last edited by sailfl; Wed 16 September 2009 at 03:58..
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  #100  
Old Sat 19 September 2009, 19:12
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
Here are some pics of the cuts I made today they are in aluminum
6061, cut at a 45 degree angle to the machine
//chopper
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pic-1.jpg (16.3 KB, 437 views)
File Type: jpg pic-2.jpg (12.3 KB, 436 views)
File Type: jpg pic-3.jpg (10.0 KB, 439 views)
File Type: jpg pic-4.jpg (11.2 KB, 442 views)
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  #101  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 02:02
liaoh75
Just call me: David
 
Taibao
Taiwan
Hi Chopper, may I ask how thick that aluminum is and what were your cut parameters? Specifically, inches per minute, and depth per pass. That cut looks pretty good to me.
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  #102  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 02:04
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Chopper,

That looks as good as a mill would cut. How about more details.
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  #103  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 02:28
liaoh75
Just call me: David
 
Taibao
Taiwan
Hi Nils, I know a computer swap was recommended for test purposes, did you every try that? The reason I ask is because I have had a problem before and believe it or not, each machine I tried (to resolve a different problem than you are having) produced a slightly different sound on my Mechmate which indicates to me the PC does play a role in your cut quality or should I say cut "characteristics". In all, I believe I have had 5 different machines with identical settings in Mach driving my gantry and each made a noticably difference sound when jogging at the exact same speed settings - some machines were smoother and some rougher. Don't ask me why but it is definitely worth a try on your trouble shooting adventure even if that means borrowing a friend's machine - P4 vintage works best in my tests. Well worth the time and effort. One thing I've learned working on this wonderful machine is that sometimes, the solutions that don't seem logical ironically turns out to be the fix. Keep an open mind and don't throw in the towel as the solution is probably right around the corner.

Hope you can get your proble resolved.

Last edited by liaoh75; Sun 20 September 2009 at 02:37..
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  #104  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 03:32
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
David,

I have not switched out computers. I don't believe my problem is with the computer but I appreciate you mentioning you results.
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  #105  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 06:25
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Today, I finished replacing the bearings in my Milwaukee router with higher tolerance ones. My runout went from 4-5 thousands to just under 2 thousands. When you run the router it does sound like it is quieter.

But I have actually gone backwards in the quality of my cut. I was cutting smooth at 35 and 70 IPM in solid surface material and having problems at 100. Now, I am no longer smooth at 35 and 70. I did not expect that I would go backwards. I am not sure what I am going to do next because I would have thought that changing the bearings would not have made things worse.

I am begining to think the computer might be a problem.
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  #106  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 06:58
liaoh75
Just call me: David
 
Taibao
Taiwan
Nils, if you do try a different machine, whatever you do, don't go with a modern dual core. The power saving features built into the CPU (which can't be shut off) will not give you a smooth pulse train. This was the root of my problem. If you look in the trouble shooting section of the forum, there is an entire thread dedicated to this.

I am now using a Celeron 2.4 with 512MB of ram and to this day, not a single blip on the control side. My P4 3.06 with HT worked even smoother but, that machine is dedicated to my DVR system and I'm not going to change over unless I have to. Stay with P4 era PC if you do a swap or you will most likely experience the same issues I did where the steppers lock up during a jog or cut. I hope my experience can help you avoid a few pit falls. Now, I'm battling with interference from a VFD hooking up my Chinese Spindle. Good Luck!
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  #107  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 18:43
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by liaoh75 View Post
Hi Chopper, may I ask how thick that aluminum is and what were your cut parameters? Specifically, inches per minute, and depth per pass. That cut looks pretty good to me.
the aluminum is 6061 and .250 in thickness,
the cut parameters were .020 removed per pass at 40 inches per minute on the feed rate, with no lube, 8,000 rpm on the power head 2 flute up spiral bit
//chopper
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  #108  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 19:27
jhiggins7
Just call me: John #26
 
Hebron, Ohio
United States of America
Chopper,

Thanks for sharing the cutting parameters. The cuts look very clean. It is clear that your system is very effective. I think cutting aluminum with a MechMate "on the diagonal" must be one of the most challenging jobs around. I assume that the other cuts I see on the aluminum were also made by the MechMate.

I looked back at your build pictures and I don't see the "power head." Did you end up with a spindle like you were discussing?

Any how, very nice work and thank you for sharing your results with us.
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  #109  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 19:57
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
John,
no spindle, just a Milwaukee, router....
//chopper
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  #110  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 21:20
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
I am making a quick visit to this thread, and will then stay away again.

The major marks shown on the work piece are maybe about 1/8" to 3/8" apart. There is zero chance that is caused by spindle/router bearings, gearbox backlash, spacers behind V-wheels, machine vibrations, or any mechanical defect. The fact that the pattern is repeatable and consistent indicates that the machine is being instructed to cut that pattern - in other words; the PC is telling the MM to cut the pattern.

When the PC was relieved of calculating load (paralleling the drives) the pattern changed. That proved that the PC was responsible, but somehow the opposite conclusion was reached.

Replacing the PC might not solve the issue, you may get a similar behaviour - Doug's test shows that.

When I point a finger at the PC, it includes hardware and software. I mean the "electronic pulse generating system". A PC can very easily generate disturbances onto smooth pulses if it is doing unnecessary tasks in the background. Thus, when I say to try another PC, I mean to try one that is set up differently. However, it could help to change the setup of the existing PC.

I believe that this thread has been sidetracked by focussing entirely on the mechanical aspects, and that tempers get inflamed by belt-drives vs gearboxes. I am 100% sure that a belt-drive will do zero for curing the particular problem mentioned at the start of this thread.
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  #111  
Old Sun 20 September 2009, 21:57
lumberjack_jeff
Just call me: Jeff #31
 
Montesano, WA
United States of America
An inexpensive experiment would be to copy a good test file to a thumb drive, download the EMC live cd
http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/21/4/lang,en/

boot your computer with it, and run the test reference file from the thumb drive.

EMC isn't horribly difficult to configure, and you don't need to swap computers, or wipe your current one.

Windows is fundamentally not a realtime operating system. I don't know how Mach gets around this constraint. EMC is working nicely for me with a *really* rudimentary computer.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...0&postcount=26

On edit, I read now that you can't use a thumbdrive with mach... is that true?

Last edited by lumberjack_jeff; Sun 20 September 2009 at 22:01..
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  #112  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 06:02
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Gerald,

Thanks for your input and for looking at this again.

The computer I am currently using with the machine is a Dell Pentium III. It is bare bones in that it has Windows XP Pro and Mach. I didn't add virus but I am going to check that today. I also did not add any other programs that should be running in the back ground. But I am going to look at Task Manager today to see what else is running.

I have been using my memory stick to load my GCode files and I know others do the same. I will try running from the hard drive because there could be a communication problem.

There is another MM builder that lives close to me that did not document his build. I recently visited his machine to look at his belt drives. I ran the diamond cut file on his machine at 100 IPM and he did not have a problem. I associated the smooth cut to the belt drives but it could also be the computer. He has recently offered to bring his computer over to try it on my machine. I hope that we will be able to do that on Tuesday. I will report back on the results.

Jeff, I have been trying enough things that have muddy up the water, I don't want to try another software package. I am well aware that windows is not a realtime operating system from my experience with simulators and realtime responses. But I appreciate you suggestion and for try to help me.
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  #113  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 06:15
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Nils,
Your windows installation might be stock but there will be lots of bloat that MS installs by default. These extra services have been known to cause problems with cnc activities. Also antivirus scanners can be a real problem, especially the real time scanners and when a scheduled scan starts. Your MM computer does not need to be connected to the internet so the need for antivirus is very small. You can look at Black Viper's windows services site to see what services can be turned off that you do not need. Look at bare bones setup for starters.
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  #114  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 09:13
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
I checked and I do not have any virus software running.

I also ran my diagonal file with the GCode file loaded on the hard drive and not on the memory stick.

I opened task manager. In the performance window, the peak was about 15% activity while mach cut the file. I then opened the process window, Mach was the only process that ran and it peaked at 15%.

I don't believe any thing else is running but I am going to try another computer to verify that there is a problem with the current computer.

I will keep you posted.
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  #115  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 15:46
Alan_c
Just call me: Alan (#11)
 
Cape Town (Western Cape)
South Africa
Send a message via Skype™ to Alan_c
I have just returned from Johannesburg where I was offered a position at a very large fruniture manufacturer managing the maintenance at two plants (turned it down even though the salary offered was astranomical by my standards - all the money in the world cant justify an abusive boss!)

But to the point...at this plant they have 9 big iron CNC's, two of them massive SCM Ergons with three heads and two huge extremely fast moving tables. The cut quality coming off these (R7 million) machines in chipboard was no better than what I get with my direct drive Mechmate when driven a bit fast. If I slow down, my cut quality is a bit better. I am still going to fit belt drives as I feel it will improve things but maybe we ARE expecting a bit much from the system when we try and get milling machine quality cuts from a gantry router. The fact that chopper is getting such good cuts in ally is heartening but there are just too many variable factors in computer make up, build quality and respective machine rigidity to make comparisons on this small scale.

Try another computer or two before chasing any more suspected problems.
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  #116  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 16:20
inventall
Just call me: pete
 
ca
United States of America
Allan_C, all the more reason we need a sample test board to determine how well we built our machine.

p.s. I agree on the boss thing, best to walk away
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  #117  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 20:30
Greg J
Just call me: Greg #13
 
Hagerman, New Mexico
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan_c View Post
(turned it down even though the salary offered was astranomical by my standards - all the money in the world cant justify an abusive boss!)

Sorry for the thread drift
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  #118  
Old Wed 23 September 2009, 09:57
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Today, I tried another computer that is being used on a MM that was built but not documented in the greater Orlando area.

Using the other computer we got the same cutting results on my machine. If you remember I did cut my diagonal file on his machine and it was smooth.

I thought my Z Slide was tight but he thought it was loose so I tightened things up but it did not help. On closer inspection it looks as though the Spider is flexing. I do have mamba or 3/16" Spider.

What is the best way to stiffen the spider?

Thanks
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  #119  
Old Wed 23 September 2009, 11:54
astrolavista
Just call me: Rene #29
 
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Canada
I "Stiffened" mine with some .375" rod top and bottom..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Picture%20088.jpg (35.1 KB, 337 views)
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  #120  
Old Wed 23 September 2009, 12:56
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Dont forget to see this
Beefing up a thin spider
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