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  #31  
Old Wed 09 January 2013, 01:30
Surfcnc
Just call me: Ross #74
 
Queensland
Australia
Hi Fox

I have been reading your thread and wish you the best of luck.

With respect to the modifications you would like to make, from my perspective no problems at all.
What I would be very disappointed about is if you mine the forum for information and knowledge then do not document your mods for us all to see.
It is a tough call especially when you are under a time constraint but please make it a priority to give back and share what you learn.

Just a quickie on your USB based controller. Don't do it !!
Recently I have just read the Shopbot forum from top to bottom about USB communications issues and if you have any, significant pain is heading your way.
The board you are using may be good but many other variables such as the PC controller itself, cable quality, ground loops etc are also factors that you will not easily make allowance for.
I will not hand you the answer but my firmest recommendation is to use Ethernet communication for your controller if you wish to move away from the safety of the parallel port !!

regards
Ross
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  #32  
Old Wed 09 January 2013, 16:01
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
After a very long day (18 hours) literally just arrived back from my visit to Hans and Damen CNC. Kevin, owner of DamenCNC was a very nice and knowledgeable guy, learned a lot.

After that visit I went to Hans...he was VERY kind, invited me to his house and workshop and showed me all the parts he gathered, and what he build so far.
He got a big treasure chest at his house with a complete Mechmate in parts in it ... has even got an supercool ATC from Blurry Customs; NICE !

He helped me tremendously with all kinds of tips and info and warnings.. THANK SO MUCH HANS !

He also warned me 4-5 weeks in his eyes is too little time to do it ( like many others are sceptical ). But he provided me with a list of suppliers to save time.
First I am getting some shut eye, tomorrow I got A LOT to think about...


PS.
Hi Ross, if I am doing the 1 month build I won't have much time left to keep you all up to date in detail, besides from asking a lot of questions when in doubt/troubles, (I have a young family and a business to run at the same time, (so imagine my predicament), but will do a detailed write-up afterwards, I've learned a lot from reading others !
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  #33  
Old Wed 09 January 2013, 18:00
bradm
Just call me: Brad #10
 
Somerville(MA)
United States of America
You can count me on the side of the folks that say you need to build a stock, unmodified MM (belt drives if you wish) if you're on a tight schedule. If you want to explore the other versions, it will cost you more, not less time. Of course, if you decide to take the slower path, then you can explore as many changes as you have time and money to handle.
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  #34  
Old Wed 09 January 2013, 20:11
Surfcnc
Just call me: Ross #74
 
Queensland
Australia
Thanks for that Fox, it is quite clear that you have set yourself a very steep hill to climb.
A few strategic pics along with way will also serve to remind yourself what you did and how you did it.

If you want to build the best machine you can, it is a mistake to use an already superseded and troublesome communications bus on the machine controller.
Ethernet is a high bandwidth bus and has superior noise rejection as it uses twisted cores.
The newer Cat 6 cables also have a thicker wire and can be purchased with an additional mylar shield to further eliminate interference.

If it seems like I'm harping on about this - that is because I am .

regards
Ross

Last edited by Surfcnc; Wed 09 January 2013 at 20:12.. Reason: Spelling correction
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  #35  
Old Thu 10 January 2013, 12:26
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi surf,

I am thinking of purchasing CPU5A4E Economy 4 axes with Ethernet.

I will be using Vectric Cut2d for the first job(s) later upgrade it or use something else when I know what I like/don't like about it. So far I like it, it's dead easy. Already have run simulations on my all my cutting files with milling pocketing and drilling included so I do not have to worry anymore if I can control the machine on the software side, that's now sorted.

I am now super busy on my shopping list for steel and electronics.

(@HANS: I have found a postrpocessor for all VECTRIC software on USBCN on CNCzone)
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  #36  
Old Thu 10 January 2013, 17:07
Surfcnc
Just call me: Ross #74
 
Queensland
Australia
Hi Fox

I have had a quick read up on the CPU5A4E.
You should be able to install a wireless adapter (USB even) into the controller PC and have it networked to your LAN quite safely.
The idea of having a separate subnet for the CPU5A4E and the machine controller is similar to the other ethernet controllers.
The configurator set up is also similar and from experience I would suggest switching off the firewall until the communications is established.

The pulsing is adequate at 125K and faster than the Mach3 100K using the parallel port.
The smoothstepper runs at up to 4000K but in practice this is not often used.
I am wondering about expansion though as the smoothstepper has options for a further two emulated parallel ports.

The price for the CPU5A4E board and software combination is certainly competitive against say a PMDX 126, SS and Mach3 combo by a significant margin.
In the end if it fits your needs and it works well, it does not matter what is locked away in the control box and running on the PC.
You have already stated that you understand that the user base for CNC4PC is smaller than the Mach3 install base.
As long as you have established a pathway to some quality help with the hardware/software combination that is all that matters.
The only downside is that this wonderful forum will stay mute if you run into problems as Mach3 and Linux CNC pretty much rule here.

Regards
Ross
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  #37  
Old Fri 11 January 2013, 09:38
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Surf,

that's the only reasons why it did not buy it yet, I'm gonna be the first with a Mechmate and USBCNC... In general I am not the one to shy away of being the first, if it seems to make sense why not ? Somebody got to do it But of course..in this case I have a tight deadline. Luckily it's Dutch and on the Dutch CNC zone there is a userbase and the guy who invented it is also fast in replying to problems. And in then end a CNC big or small is still a CNC. Either way both versions of setup work in test setup, and these are the least of my worries right now as there's not much delay in the ordering process for these ( inquired already). Now grinding my teeth at more urgent stuff; all electronics parts and the cutting list...
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  #38  
Old Fri 11 January 2013, 09:38
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
I found a nice affordable vacuumbed option I think I will go for (Hans tipped me):

http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php...cuum-manifold/

with

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11813

The plumbing seems straight forward, and the box can be cut to learn my first steps on the machine. Any opinions on these vacuumcleaner engines ? Any Mechmates with this system ( I've seen Ken uses them I believe) ?

Last edited by Fox; Fri 11 January 2013 at 09:46..
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  #39  
Old Fri 11 January 2013, 10:50
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Revised planning on the Motor/driving side of things:

starting with:

Gecko 203V

wired by means of Bipolar parallel wiring to a:


oriental motors PK299-F4.5A


In combination with a 4:1 belt reduction

Using XL belt, pulley 72 & 18 tooth, 20 tooth pinion

to

standard spec rack.

Last edited by Fox; Fri 11 January 2013 at 10:59..
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  #40  
Old Sun 13 January 2013, 07:48
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Update:

Mechanical: 20 tooth is for inch based machines so I should use a 24 tooth as a minimum for my metric based machine, correct !?


Onto the electronics; can anybody confirm my calculations below ?!

PK299-F4.5A

Inductance: 2.5 [Bipolar (Parallel)]
Voltage: 1.9 [Bipolar (Parallel)]
Current per Phase: 6.3 [Bipolar (Parallel)]

Gecko 203V

Min volts: 18
Max volts: 80


My calculations for the power supply:

So, where do we go in the range 24 to 80V?
Volts:
32 x √2.5 (Motor Inductance) = 50,59644 Volts
VA/Watts
6,3 (Motor Amps) x 4 = 25,2 Amps and 67 % of that =16,884 Amps
16,884 (Total Amps) x 50,59644 (Volts) = 854,27029 VA/WATT

So I need an 50 volts 850 watt Power Supply.

Is this assumption correct ?

According to the forum I can go up in voltage about 5-10% and the VA could be a bit bigger or smaller without much problems, to find the proper power supply, but not go as high as a 1000 watt as it might cause problems with the inrush.

At Antek, they have no 50 + which matches 800+watts, until I go over 56 volts but that is more then the 10 % added, so fall back to 48 volts ?

Should I order:

just the 48 volts: http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=411

Or 48 and 24: http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=413

I am asking cause I thought I have read somewhere people uses the 24 volts for optional stuff like lights ? or am I mixing things here ?

Last edited by Fox; Sun 13 January 2013 at 07:52..
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  #41  
Old Sun 13 January 2013, 08:28
danilom
Just call me: Danilo #64
 
Novi Sad
Serbia
If module 1 rack then what I found is only 20, 26 and 30 tooth pinions , the lower number of teeth slows you down but increases resolution,
What I seen almost everyone use 30 tooth module 1 (3.14 or PI, tooth distance) with belt reduction 3:1

you can use 12 or 24VDC depending on the relays, contactors and other stuff you plan to use on the machine
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  #42  
Old Sun 13 January 2013, 15:34
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Thanks Danilom !

Yes Module 1. Then I order 20 and 26th or 20 and 30 tooth- so I have two options in the end to experiment if necessary.

I am willing to sacrifice speed for increased resolution but only if necessary
I am doing the 4:1 ( I know about the theoretical wrap issue - ) though.
I thought I read somewhere here that 20 tooth works only with inch based racks, and that 20 tooth on module 1 would be too small to use grub screws ?
( But I read so much the past week, and slept so little that I sometime think I hallucinate)

Ok, I will decide the second output to be 12 or 24 based on the rest of my system, so besides that my calculations/assumptions are correct ? (I need to start ordering..)

Last edited by Fox; Sun 13 January 2013 at 15:38..
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  #43  
Old Sun 13 January 2013, 15:43
danilom
Just call me: Danilo #64
 
Novi Sad
Serbia
48V should be ok for motors supply

if a pinion has a too small collar for grub screw, same as 15 tooth pulley which I had to bore to suit 14mm motor shaft,
what I do is drill two-three holes (depends on space availabe) and tap a thread to connect it to a larger piece (if possible I welded it couple of times). I think it could be the term "hub" to call that piece which is added to the pinion or pulley.
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  #44  
Old Sun 13 January 2013, 18:05
MetalHead
Just call me: Mike
 
Columbiana AL
United States of America
You need to make sure your voltage matches your motors faily close so that 48 should be fine. You may want to explore other motors as a cost savings if they are available. The price point in the States for that motor is almost 3x a comperable equivalent. Also I have seen in a lot of the newer builds not having secondary output DC voltages in the box. This keeps the costs down on the PS. Unless you have specific designs in your cabinet for the lower voltages, they are really not needed with the newer BOB's. You just need to make sure your BOB can run off of 110 volts like the PMDX-126 can. If I am remembering correctly the older setups used the secondary DC voltages to power the older PMDX-122 BOB's.
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  #45  
Old Sun 13 January 2013, 18:50
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Thanks Mike,

I'll keep that in mind. I was looking into Motion King and Leadshine for savings (saw this savings story pop up somewhere else). But... I am very limited in time, so I might just cave in and stay with the current choice, my head is hurting and time is running out quickly. Just finished calculating all my cutting list and lasercutting for the steel, mailed it out to 3 vendors, hope to have answer today/tomorrow, going to bed now (3PM )...


Danilom; found this on the pinions again: is this old or still active in terms of suggestion for my pinions in metric with 4:1 drive ?

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...5&postcount=39
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  #46  
Old Sun 13 January 2013, 22:10
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Update: Mechanical: 20 tooth is for inch based machines so I should use a 24 tooth as a minimum for my metric based machine, correct !?
24 tooth is the minimum for "module 1" gears . Correct.

(if you use module 1.5, which has bigger teeth, you might be able to go to 20 tooth, but I have not studied it. Module 1.5 is not so common as module 1. The best smoothness will be with module 1)
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  #47  
Old Mon 14 January 2013, 01:56
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
And...awake again (since 1,5 hours).
Luckily I am "combat trained" by my 2 years old ...but that was a short night again.

Thnx Gerald !
I will order the 24 tooth and the 36tooth option then. I need smooth, so Module 1 will be it.

I've spoken with my friend ( in the steel trade) about your plans, and he was impressed with the thorough and clean job you did on the plans. So am I, now I am diving into all the little details. Even though I was already up to speed with the general plan, I must admit it's quite a time-consuming (with my deadline) read to find/figure out all the details needed on a build ( I know why you choose this strategy ). But the good thing is almost always when I start looking I discover that somewhere on this forum you typed the answer.

@ Mike can I also buy a .dxf for the proxy switches time saver of you ? Would be more convenient/economic for me if I can order them with the lasercutting parts.

Last edited by Fox; Mon 14 January 2013 at 01:58..
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  #48  
Old Mon 14 January 2013, 04:46
MetalHead
Just call me: Mike
 
Columbiana AL
United States of America
I can ship a set to you in the post. I can send you an invoice

or

Look here

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...4&postcount=23
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  #49  
Old Mon 14 January 2013, 05:49
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Ah, thanks added them immediately to the lasercut files !
Normally I would buy them from you but with this deadline it's quicker to cut them with spiders etc !

Can anybody confirm what my total width would be of the table with effective cutting surface of 3100x2100 mm ? Maybe measure your own table ? I know I would need to add 500 mm to the Y, but I think the motors are sticking out over that ?

I need to know how much room I will have left in my preferred designated area which is a bit tight (8000 x 3450 mm wall to wall ) to be able to walk around ( on one side ?) the machine when it's operating.

Last edited by Fox; Mon 14 January 2013 at 06:14..
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  #50  
Old Mon 14 January 2013, 06:12
rischoof
Just call me: Rik #92
 
Goirle
Netherlands
fox,
For my machine add 36cm to your y axis (measured over the outerside from the C profiles. my motor+ gearbox is 14.5 cm outside the c profile
total to your y is 36 + (2x14.5) =65 cm
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  #51  
Old Mon 14 January 2013, 06:15
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Thank you Ric,

don't know where I would be without you guys !
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  #52  
Old Mon 14 January 2013, 06:29
bradm
Just call me: Brad #10
 
Somerville(MA)
United States of America
The absolute total width is from the back of one of the X axis stepper motors to the back of the other, so it varies a small amount depending on the size of the stepper. Normally, the front of the stepper is 20 mm or so beyond the length of the gantry steel. Belt drives push things out another 30 mm. So, a working estimate is that you'll have 2100 + 500 + 2 * ( 20 + 30 + 100 ) = 2900 mm in your 3450 mm space.

Presumably you'll do full sheet loads into the end of the table, and perhaps place one long side against a wall. That would leave you with a small area in the middle at the back that you would not be able to reach without climbing on the table. My space is constrained on two sides, and I have to load over the rail and climb to get anything at the back rail; I tend to layout my sheets so that I don't have small pieces at the back side.

You won't need 850 watts worth of power - all four motors will never draw their maximum at the same time. There are plenty of successful reports at 300 watts; there is no risk in going over, it just costs money you don't need to spend. Since most folks aren't comfortable when they hear this, go ahead and get a larger supply, but you might consider something in the 450 watt range instead.

You may also want to consider using "half coil" wiring instead of bipolar parallel. You can read up on the pros and cons elsewhere on the forum. This needn't affect your ordering,
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  #53  
Old Tue 15 January 2013, 00:51
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Brad,

valuable insights. Stupid but I did not think about the engines not all being loaded at the full at the same time, but hey... it's my first CNC.
I will downscale the power supply, saving money is good.

Space is a bit tight indeed, my workshop size is comfortable, but divided into many different rooms ( not just drywall- they use real stone here in the Netherlands ) So this room the best/quickest to clean out place I have available right now ( now storage/junk room) My workshop itself is bigger, but don't want to take up all the floorspace there with this big machine obstructing other work/machines.

Your tips on parts planning will be taken into consideration. I was also contemplating if after cutting your could just pull the cut sheet towards you to slide the cut pieces with it, being able to pick them out one by one ( drop them on a cloth on the floor ), a bit like a conveyer belt. ( with 20 mm mdf this become heavy work - but with a sheet of 4 mm plastic it might work, if the spoilboard has not yet seen too many cuts ? we'll see.
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  #54  
Old Wed 16 January 2013, 16:09
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Gerald & others;

Asking for a second opinion:

For a MechMate with bolt together table frame with flanges like seen on the forum for instance by BuiBui.

Option A) the left side
Option B) the right side


I am using an Wide flange 200 x 100 mm I profile for the main beam.
I am using 50x50x5 mm beams for the frame.

Option A allows me for regaining some more of the lost space under the table for storage of boxes etc.
Option B is true to the original design, but using square box profile instead of tubes.
I would choose Option A, but only if I am not comprising the performance/strength of the frame in a significant way. Then I would fall back to option B) and triangular boxes :-)

Last edited by Fox; Wed 16 January 2013 at 16:21..
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  #55  
Old Thu 17 January 2013, 03:30
Surfcnc
Just call me: Ross #74
 
Queensland
Australia
Option B is more rigid.
Option A is still more than adequate.

All those options limit direct access to the underside of the table as you have to lift objects over the lower bar.
Please note that storage of items / sheets would normally be slid in from the short side or what some might call the ends of the table.
The table is also typically loaded from the ends, so having your storage strategy consistent with that is quite important.

A better option is to diagonally brace the long side of the table as per the plans.
For the table ends if you wish to use the underside as sheet storage see the pic.
Table end.JPG

There is a strong focus on the table design in the forum with lots of variations on the basic theme.
Typically these variations are mostly cosmetic / vanity modifications as is quite typical of the average DIY fan.
The real issue is reading the plans in fine detail and understanding how the table goes together.
The business end is the upper table, the electronics and the software control and tuning.
Set your goals for your storage requirements and quickly move on to the main game if you are on a short time frame for the build.

If you intend to bolt the table as myself and Bui Bui have done, expect this to take more time to build.
To make this process as quick as possible you should draw your own CAD lower table drawings to highlight any clashes with the bolt connections.
The CAD drawings will also give you the ability to make mild steel drilling templates out of flat bar for your hole spacing's.

Not all measurements are directly provided in the plans and they will need to be inferred from your chosen table size.
Until you can calculate these measurements on your own, you can assume you do not know the plans well enough to proceed and get it right first time with no redo's.

Regards
Ross
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  #56  
Old Thu 17 January 2013, 03:56
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Ross,

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I already did the drawing I show myself in CAD, luckily I am fairly quick with CAD.
Even though the deadline I wanted so spend one day and night on checking the thing in CAD, for issues. Found some and corrected. Also understand the dimensioning much better now. Was just wondering about the compromise in strength between these two designs for the side, I am not an engineer, and have not run a CNC before. I do understand we want the main beam as stiff as possible, and a diagonal is generally stronger, as they triangulate the hell out of cranes and such I was just wondering if this solution would be "good enough". I figured I loose some strength, and maybe gain a bit by using the I beam for the main beam so I would be ok, but I just am not sure about that. if there would be thousand KG on the middle of the BIG beam, i would for sure take the diagonal route, but with the router most forces are sideways, wanting to rack the thing, which I hope to catch with the ladder construction ?

I do have left a little space to slide some stock 2050x3050plates in from the front, but I designed it so it is only small, as I think adding a lot of boards will quickly add many KG in weight, which will start pulling on the structure and that can't be good. Other stock will be slid, under the machines lower beam, or elsewhere.
I also asked BuiBui about this design and he has replied me he has not found any movement issues other then he would replace the top beams with the C profile like in the plans ( he used box ). So I guess I should be fine. If it really tuns out an issue I can always add an diagonal later in the left and right square of the ladders.

Ps. I have to send out the cutting list tonight, so I just need a second opinion before I make a stupid mistake in search of some storage space

"Standard"


"Adapted design"

Last edited by Fox; Thu 17 January 2013 at 04:24..
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  #57  
Old Thu 17 January 2013, 09:11
zumergido
Just call me: Fernando
 
BS AS
Argentina
you can start building and order the laser parts while you asemble the base table.
remember you have to asemble the table and paint it. once you have the base table you can cut the rails on it at least one day cutting.
if you are alone there are some things you will need help like moving the gantry..
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  #58  
Old Fri 18 January 2013, 00:37
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
Hi Fox,
1 month is "enuf" (not plenty) time for this build. The main trick is to have all the necessary parts & material in hand & a pair of helping hands for heavy lifting & assemble the table.

Of all the works, the rail grinding is the sucker, not difficult, just time consuming. I would strongly advice you start grinding the rails once you have the skate in hand. AND DO IT OUT DOORS!

DO NOT skip the Kitchen table project before any electrical installations, you had been warned!.

A bolt on table will take at least double the time to build then a weld-on, because you will need to prepare the brackets (unless you have a pair of helping hands) & most importantly it is harder to align everything together (even if you have a pair of helping hands). I know because I'd built both.

Prime your steel before you do any cutting will save plenty time at the end of the build.

You only need 300VA transformers for the PSU, just take our word for it if you have no time to read through the forum. & yes, 48Vac is a good choice. Don't forget that you need at least 20,000uF capacitor with at least48V rating, 65V is my choice.

If you need DC for your bob or other light load electronics, just grab a wal-mart wall plug or any cellphone charger for the job. will save you plenty of time & money..

For direct drive, 24 teeth is the smallest pinion physically possible to fit on to your stepper motor shaft.

Take down a wall if you can, collecting the cut parts is PITA when you can not access from the side especially when they are small & plentiful.

Take time to level the rails & do better than your best to ensure every part of the table is square & through.
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  #59  
Old Fri 18 January 2013, 06:02
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
STEEL IS ORDERED

@ Fernando
painting afterwards, not now. Table building will be finished next week with help of my friend in the steel company.
@ Ken.
Rails are indeed an issue. Asked for quotes on V rails to cut time short. If in US I would have ordered from Superior bearings. Quotes in NL for V rails + wheels are crazy, unhardened rails for my machine about 2000 euros (!)... I can buy Hiwin linear guides for that ! If time schedule permits it will be the DYI grinding, will perform test with skate in hand next week to calculate time, already ordered enough L profiles just in case.

I am on a 4:1 gearbox with belts, but on geralds advise will use 24 tooth for gear.

I will square everything with micrometer. Table is built in professional workshop with all tools/weldingtables/clamps available, I hope we can get it into 1 mm accuracy on frame. I hope I beams for main will help reduce warp on the mainbeams.

Bolt on is necessary for transport movement in and out of my shop. I know welding is quicker and stronger, but it is like it is... So bolted it will be.

First assignment has to be in small room, later we will see.
I can walk around it see image.


Last edited by Fox; Fri 18 January 2013 at 06:06..
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  #60  
Old Fri 18 January 2013, 06:17
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
I know a H500 x W400 x D150 is minimum requirement for a control box.
I want to mount my box in between my side frame, where I have a space of W825xH400 mm.
Looking for boxes I can place a W600 x H400x D210 box in there so doors open standard. So basically a bit bigger then the minimum "portait" version, but then laying in "landscape" modus.

I wonder: could I manage fitting my electronics horizontal in this box ? Or should I stick with standard postion ( remember my box is laying down, so standard horizontal rows will become vertical in my box ! )

red box is electronics box, green one will be VFD box.


Last edited by Fox; Fri 18 January 2013 at 06:19..
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