#31
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Again working on the case
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#32
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double Z
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#33
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2 Z is pretty cool
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#34
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#58 is like that too. 2 z's, 2x the fun!
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#35
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How you the plan to operate 2 axes z under Mach3? It will be analog of ATC?
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#36
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Dear Dmitry,
my knowledge in this area are not great and that is one reason that my building goes so slow. I decided to finish all mechanical parts and then to devote to me unknown part of this adventure (electronics and Mach3).Making the machine primarily for cutting and grooving of aluminum composite panels(wall cladding).It is a process that is difficult to operate manually and due to high prices of CNC routers decided without much knowledge of this issue to try to do something that makes our job easier.Processing of aluminum composite panels are mainly used two cutters (cutting and grooving) and so I decided to be 2 Z axes.I am aware that Mach3 can control up to 2 Z axis (or I'm wrong).Thank you and all of you on the forum from which we(ignorant) can learn a lot.Rarely can there be such a good site as MECHMATE forum and also good people who are responsible for maintaining it.If I understand you, do you want to tell me that I have even the option of choosing a method of management of both Z axes.I hope you will help me in this part of the building to me unknown.Thanks in advance. |
#37
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Hi Pajka.
Your two spindles won't be able to run at the same time, anyway. Through, the G-code generation might be a real problem, IMO. Just a think : what about a simple tool changer ? It might be less expensive than a double Z, and very easy to manage with any software. The time spent in tool changing is not that much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOeBSMyiAw |
#38
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Axel,
first spindle will cut and second one will V-groove.It is not possible to do that at the same time,I know that.My idea was to not waste time to change cutters for any sheet loaded on the machine.I hope that Im not wrong with construction(my idea was:first to groove and after that to cut parts with second spindle.)Can you confirm whether this is possible? |
#39
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Well, i'm far to be a specialist.
Some machines have two toolheads, but mounted on the same Z axis. (A spindle and a Plasma, for example). Some other machines have duplicate Z axis (to cut several boards at the same time), it's just duplicating an axis with an offset. With two Z axis, i guess the problem might be to generate comprehensible g-code with conventional software. You're exploring something undone yet. That does not mean it's impossible to do. Just you will have no source to refer on, and you'll walk alone in the dark. With an automatic tool changer, changing a tool will take maybe 10-15 seconds waisted. It is not an important factor in a production environment. You can spend much more time in loading and unloading your table. Most of the best production machines have a tool changer. I can't remember any example with a two Z axis technology. Any software can manage the tool changing abilities in two clics. And your needs may change from two tools to 3 or more in future applications. I appreciate you have already bought and mount two Z axis. But i'm affraid you'll face more problems than solutions this way. (Don't forget the second Z is valuable and can be sold...) Maybe I'm wrong, if anyone have a fast solution to your problem, he will talk. If you have no awnser in this way, you'll have to solve the problem by yourself. |
#40
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I think it would be pretty easy to cut a profile and then v-groove with a dual head. first cut out with your profile head, raise that head, center in and lower your v-groove head, 0 out your axis's and cut the same pattern with a v-groove? I'm sure you'll have to do some tinkering to get the precise location of the first head, but if you measure the distance between the two heads to a precise amount, you can move the router that amount and get a pretty accurate location.
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#41
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Hi Paika
I am farther to be specialist but if your MM is going exclusively to cut and grove aluminum composite panels. Configure the two Z axis motors as the X axis motors. While one runs CW the other runs CCW so when one spidle goes up the other goes down. |
#42
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I personally advised Pajka to go with dual Z, dual spindle setup.
As it can be operated by a simple button and offset in Mach3. And I kindly ask some of the members not to give advises like this so fast without previous knowledge , oooh what a mistake, sell the second spindle etc... If you ever get a chance to see work with alubond, you will soon see what a pain it is to constantly change bits! It cuts relatively fast, first all the V groves for bending are cut, then cut out with 4mm endmill. So think of a daily routine of cutting 15-20 boards 1.25x4m. That equals to 30-40 toolchanges, each one can't be done lets say under a minute as you have to unscrew the nut, put the new one, tighten and zero the Z. So what are you doing is wasting around 40mins everyday (maybe even count in collets and nut wear a bit). Alubond cutting usualy equals to minimum of 15eur a board (3eur per sq.meter) and around 30eur per hour in Serbia. So you lose at least 20eur every production day on toolchanges. After a month that equates to minimum of 400 eur, so it nearly PAYS off a spindle and vfd in a month. Not everyone here is for the hobby, I learned in last two years a lot and try to give a best possible advice to my friends and other. For alubond processing, dual Z setup is a best and cheapest toolchanger as you only need two bits. In the end, here is one cnc machine made specially for alubond panels: http://www.kontakt.co.rs/alu.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ZGgB8HVnVzQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=l6YGp5PXCg8 p.s. when the machine gets operational I will post about usage of dual Z here in forum and a video. |
#43
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I will be interested to read about dual Z management. Realy.
I feel confident Paika have you by his side to help him. There's all the chances to succeed now. No need to any other advice. It's OK. It's true I have no experience on small shops business. And I will probably never have any. I just work for the third european POS manufacturer, We transform 15 tons of steel and various materials each year, glass, plastic, wood... All our robots have tool changers (except the laser cutters and the tube benders), and the tool changing is realy fast. DIY changers can be fast too. There's many examples. It's just what I wana say. Quote:
Last edited by Axel1966; Tue 15 May 2012 at 13:43.. |
#44
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From what I have read, tool changers can be costly to the DIY guy. Spindles that have tool change capability are expensive. I think that the dual Z setup will be less costly in the long run.
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#45
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If accuracy of below 0.05mm is what you are after, a ATC is the way to go.
Not only an tool changing capable spindle is expensive to buy, it is also expensive to maintain. for one, you need to purchase a battery of chuck heads.... & $$$ keep clicking... Dual spindle set up is one economical way to have 2 bit changing capability in a hurry. The only draw back is accuracy. but than again, do you seriously need 0.1mm precision for you jobs??? Even metal machine center is happy with +/- .1mm tolerance in mass production condition. |
#46
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Ok I will bite. For the dual Z axis management would it be as simple as modding one post proccessor. Turn the Z axis commands in to A axis commands and add an offset like g55 at the beginning? Only thing you would have to worry about in my mind is picking the right Post Processor for the tool size.
I have no experience but my intrest is peaked. |
#47
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I am certain that the CAM software has a way to do this (Lazy Cam at the time did not), personally, when I used my second axis it was dedicated for a single tool purpose. What this means is I edited the GCode directly in the Mach 3 window to use the alternate A or B axis for the Z post processing. IT was really easy to find in the code, because I would allow for the code window in Mach to prompt for manual tool change - and edit on the fly if small parts, or change the whole program and save in the text file. Truly, a really large file, that cut out an entire cabinet set, took about 15 minutes to edit in the text window.
OR - later in the double z evolution, I changed out the z-slide gas strut for a small bore air cylinder with hard stops and triggered via the BOB relay for up/down cycle only for drilling. This made the cycle rate very fast for drilling. This was used as a drilling fixture (like a 5mm drill pins for shelving with a real drill bit in the second spindle/router/drill motor) |
#48
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Painting and assembling
Finished belt reductions,painted y car,some work on stop blocks
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#49
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Many thanks to danilo for reduction plates files!
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#50
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Preparing for painting
Last edited by Pajka; Mon 25 June 2012 at 14:45.. |
#51
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Y car painted
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#52
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Reached and the machine for drilling but after all the operations that I needed for.
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#53
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Just to say that I am having great time in Macedonia helping Angelko (Pajka) in wiring and Mechmate assembly. This is what we have done in past few days.
Tomorrow we expect to get some movement and fine tune the machine. Here are some pictures, more to come when we are finished ! |
#54
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Here is the video of the machine in action !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epHduC92NlY Camera ... Sound ... Chips fly ! |
#55
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Честитки !!!! Well done boys! That is some a__ kicking! Great news after hot, hell hot vacation! Поздрав Данило, со среќа Пајка. |
#56
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Hi Pajka.
Nice to see your machine in action How did yow finally solve the twin Z axis management. |
#57
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Congratulations Pajka and Danilo.
Your build logic for the 2 spindle Z axis is faultless for the specialised alubond processing. It also provides a degree of double redundancy if a spindle or VFD was to fail. The control box is perfect with plenty of space. If I had my time over I would use something just like it. Thanks for the video too. Regards Ross |
#58
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Congrats!
That is a beautiful machine you built. Any thoughts on duct collection? |
#59
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Twin Z is managed by Mach3 directly from software. Also the Aspire post-processor had to be altered to some degree to call certain Mach macros on start and end to revert from one or another Z.
When tool 2 is called it swaps Z and B axis apply the XY offsets and goes to work. Ken, dust collection will be solved very soon as I gave some advice to Pajka how to mount it. Ross, the control box is 800x800 but far from plenty of space. Drives had to be stacked pretty close (but we have a 120mm 220V AC fan directly on them so no problems) And the two VFDs are right next to each other. Its all packed so a little more room would be nice. Pajka wanted real industrial look of the inside so we used big channels and some nice big relays , switches and contactors for all and lights outside the box. |
#60
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Another proof that control panel is never big enough... even with a 800x800 box is not big enough! LOL!!!
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