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  #1  
Old Sun 10 November 2013, 16:11
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Got clean air now!! #127 - Big Falls, Mn

Darren Sayler that is. I've known him for a few years from other forums and he keeps BRAGGING about his CNC.

I am now at the point where I need to go that way with my production, so I figured to look at this route.

I programmed and ran cnc machines at Marvin windows a lot of years ago so I understand what they can do.

I expect I will do a lot of looking prior to embarking on building one, but it looks like this is a huge resource.

First criteria will be a machine to handle 5x5 sheets.

So what kind of money should I be asking the company for?

Last edited by Kornerking; Sun 10 November 2013 at 16:14..
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  #2  
Old Sun 10 November 2013, 16:34
MetalHead
Just call me: Mike
 
Columbiana AL
United States of America
Well most are in the 6K to 8K range.

Welcome to the forum and we look forward to your build.
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  #3  
Old Sun 10 November 2013, 19:09
servant74
Just call me: Jack
 
Nashville (Tennessee)
United States of America
And Darren's last name isn't even Bush! ... Glad to have you with us.
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  #4  
Old Sun 10 November 2013, 19:42
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Mike, sounds like good territory.

Took me a second Jack.

I need to do some reading up but how many trades people might I need. I have a full 15,000 sq ft woodshop but the metalworking will probably need to go to our local machine shop.
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  #5  
Old Mon 11 November 2013, 07:15
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Welcome aboard Pete!!
I'll advise you do a ton of reading, then read some more, then after you've read a bunch, read even more.
Knowing what you at least initially plan to do, I'll suggest belt drives, and a Milwaukee router. I'll also say you'll be kicking yourself if you don't do at LEAST 5x8.
In your shoes, working with 5x5 BB, I'd build a 5x12 machine, with a 2 zone vacuum table. Load a sheet on one end, and set up the other end while its cutting. Re-zero on the other end, and then unload/reload the first end, repeat as needed for some serious production. at 15k square feet of shop space, you have enough room.

OR, make me an offer I cant refuse for mine.....

And I'm not BRAGGING, merely educating.....
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  #6  
Old Mon 11 November 2013, 17:31
Mrayhursh
Just call me: Hurshy
 
Riverview, Florida
United States of America
Darren

Darren can you include some photos of your vacuum table. I have seen the photos that you have previously posted but I do not see what the vacuum hold down part is.
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  #7  
Old Mon 11 November 2013, 18:08
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
So, I"ve been doing a little snooping.

Is tool changing available? I can't seem to find reference too it.
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  #8  
Old Mon 11 November 2013, 18:25
danilom
Just call me: Danilo #64
 
Novi Sad
Serbia
Only if you buy $$$$ ATC spindle
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  #9  
Old Mon 11 November 2013, 21:16
Tom Ayres
Just call me: Tom #117
 
Bassett (VA)
United States of America
There is an ATC available for around $3k that includes the router and some basic collet setups. Someone posted the link somewhere on the forum. Do a quick search. By the way Darren gives good advise and has earned his bragging rights
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  #10  
Old Wed 13 November 2013, 06:55
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Pete, I would imagine you'd use a 1/4" compression or spiral bit for the bulk of your work on the KK.
While an ATC would be nice, I wouldn't let it be a deal breaker.
The ability to troubleshoot and repair your own machine without waiting for tech support would be more valuable to me.
In Mach3, you can customize the screen to do a "fast tool change" which will travel the spindle to a tool change area, pause for the tool change, then re-zero itself to a machine mounted touch-off plate, and continue the cut file.
Only a handful of times have I used more than two bits for a project, and it wasn't cabinet related.
Toss out a link to what you do, and these guys will be even more helpful.
With all the DIY electrical that goes on here, your annual warning wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Great guys here, let em get to know you.
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  #11  
Old Wed 20 November 2013, 05:14
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
The 1/4" would work for most of the cutting but every unit requires a # of 5mm (1/8 in) holes for assembly. While we could continue to do them manually, ATC would be best. Can this be done as an add on later?

I am calculating a 15 to 18 minute labor savings per module over current system. At this rate payback would be under a year for the machine. Just for the Kornerking portion and not counting kitchens.

Mike, how do I go about buying plans?

For those who want to know, this is our product. http://www.kornerking.com/default.asp

Darren mentioned my annual warning. 6 years ago I tangled with some 480 3ph power and it won the first round. So every year I post this picture to advice peeps to slow down and be safe. These were my hands.
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  #12  
Old Wed 20 November 2013, 06:31
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Don't forget while this employee is cutting, the other one is freed up to do other tasks.
Here is a link to the plans.
Poke around the site, his other offerings are good for a guy on a time crunch.
http://www.cvsupply.com/servlet/the-...F-Plans/Detail
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  #13  
Old Wed 20 November 2013, 17:28
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
A couple of questions.

3 phase... any advantage on motors?

Vacuum... I have a 10 hp Torit dust collector collecting dust. Would this create the suction I would need?
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  #14  
Old Wed 20 November 2013, 17:41
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
No benefit to three phase I'm aware of, unless for a vacuum pump.
My MM is actually 110v. The vacuum for the hold down is 220v.
Doubtful the Torit would work for vacuum, but I could be wrong.
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  #15  
Old Wed 20 November 2013, 19:36
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Pete,

I saw a guy do that (our group leader) but the entrance and exit was in the same hand. It blew a hole out the side about 3" round. He was unfortunate enough to go phase to phase and got the full 480V and not phase to ground 277V (Wye system). I am an electrician (elect-mechinical tech.) and I will be the first to tell you that 'Electricity is not dangerous, it is the people who play with electricity that are dangerous'. If you play with it, it is not a matter of if but when. If you are lucky, you can tell people about it. It has no desire to stray from where is it at, so LET IT ALONE.

I have a similar picture in my toolbox at work. I used a 1.125" end mill to mill out some Teflon. I blocked line of sight of the cutter to feel for a seam and it bit me. Luckily it only chopped off the fingernail and part of the bone. Split the bone in two lengthwise. The other saving grace was it was just shut off and was spinning down. And NO my finger did not stop the endmill. The bad part is I was told time and time again, NEVER BLOCK LINE OF SIGHT OF THE CUTTER. It was not the end mill or the mill's fault. It was mine but to remind myself and other new people, I have it in my toolbox. And the little white stuff sticking out of the scab in not Teflon, it is a nerve. So don't try to remove what you think is a piece of Teflon that the hospital missed with your handy multi-tool. IT HURTS
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  #16  
Old Thu 21 November 2013, 05:23
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Plans are ordered.
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  #17  
Old Thu 21 November 2013, 06:55
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Awesome Pete!!
Welcome to the madness....
Mike....wheres my commission????
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  #18  
Old Thu 21 November 2013, 17:58
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
In response to post 13. If you want serious hold down, a roots blower is where it is at and you will need 3 phase for it. You just can't beat the driving force of a 120 field. You would be able to create suction through MDF undrilled. A large enough blower will just collapse it. But you will also have a lot of $$$ in it also.

You can build anything to your liking. If you are good with a computer, you can controller solenoids to open only the ports needed to hold the smallest parts through a little application building. Combine that with a machine and you have something. If you are always cutting the same product you can use a layout that will match your parts. You can use manual ball valves, removable sections that attach or recess into your spoilboard or just a plain vacuum box in you are only using small parts. Add level sensing to maintain a constant vacuum while varying the speed of the motor. Save money and energy.

Darren has built a very functional hold down system based on the one build from the shopbot forum. It has rendered him good results. Refer to his thread for more information.

The big thing is it is your build and design. We will all offer you advice, help and opinions along the way but in the end.....it is your build and decision. I was always told to listen to everyone, even the dull and ignorant have their story. The best ideas I have found have been a combination of many combined into one result.

The Torit dust collector. Keep it for its designed purpose, collecting dust.
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  #19  
Old Thu 21 November 2013, 18:56
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Thanks Pete. Early stages and asking questions. While money is always important, doing it right is more important. Whether final # comes in at 7500 0r 12500 it is function I will be looking for. We primarily use 5x5 stock so Darrens suggestion of a 5 x 12- 2 zone machine makes a lot of sense.

In addition to cutting out sheet goods, I would hope to utilize it to cut our 45deg dovetail joints for our pie cut drawers. This will entail a fixture mounted near the edge of the machine . I was excited to read in another thread that normal travel is 2" beyond the edge of the table. Then to design it with enough up and down movement (Z?) to accomplish this. We currently purchase about 200 of these each month so it would payback well.

Our building is equipped with 3 phase. Many of our machines run on 3 phase. That is why I was asking earlier on the motors.

We have considered (and may still) hiring the instrumentation done. I have kind of come to the conclusion that it is something we should get comfortable with. We may want to build other cnc applications in the future. If we can figure out the mechanics one area would be an automated finishing where the heads travel a pre programmed route. It would need to be an open centered framework where the product travels through. Again we do a lot of the same pieces so about 10 routes would do it. Just dreaming maybe.

Got the plans today and have barely got into them. I see a trip to Darrens in the near future. Only 12-13 hour drive but it would be worth it.
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  #20  
Old Thu 21 November 2013, 19:12
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
While 3 phase will not save you much with the electronics end as it is all low voltage, it will definitely help with the cost and efficiencies in any 3 phase motors and VFDs you implement into the upcoming project(s). I would assume you have a more than adequate capacity to add another drop off of your current dust collector. A trip will help in a lot of ways but reading, studying and developing an action plan is worth its weight in gold. You are in business so I am not telling you anything you already don't know but sometimes it is good to have things reiterated. Enjoy this, it is a great time and an experience you will build from.
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  #21  
Old Thu 21 November 2013, 21:56
Mrayhursh
Just call me: Hurshy
 
Riverview, Florida
United States of America
How are your hands now

Korner King
How are your hands now. I remember when I was a kid I froze my hands. Had frost bite for several weeks. My hands peeled and blistered but that in no way compares to your issue. Ouch!!
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  #22  
Old Fri 22 November 2013, 06:07
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrayhursh View Post
Korner King
How are your hands now. I remember when I was a kid I froze my hands. Had frost bite for several weeks. My hands peeled and blistered but that in no way compares to your issue. Ouch!!
After six years the skin grafts are getting thicker. It takes more of a scrape to make them bleed. I do have 95% mobility. Granted some of the stiffness may be from being 60.
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  #23  
Old Fri 22 November 2013, 19:54
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Pete, for your dovetails I would build a 3-4" raised area that would clamp to the end of your spoilboard, and merely add a couple inches to your main beams on that end. That would eliminate any z issues, and a nicely constructed dovetail torsion box assembly would allow you to index your parts, enhancing through put of materials.
Bring me a couple KKs when you come visit.
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  #24  
Old Fri 22 November 2013, 19:58
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Pete, get a binder, put the plans in it, and as you find ideas or answers in other threads, bookmark them, and then print a hardcopy to put in the binder.
Don't trust that you'll be able to find it back later.
Bet this tip would have shaved 20-30 hours off my build had I known it.
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  #25  
Old Fri 22 November 2013, 20:11
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by darren salyer View Post
Pete, get a binder, put the plans in it, and as you find ideas or answers in other threads, bookmark them, and then print a hardcopy to put in the binder.
Don't trust that you'll be able to find it back later.
Bet this tip would have shaved 20-30 hours off my build had I known it.

I been bookmarking like crazy.
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  #26  
Old Fri 22 November 2013, 20:12
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by darren salyer View Post
Pete, for your dovetails I would build a 3-4" raised area that would clamp to the end of your spoilboard, and merely add a couple inches to your main beams on that end. That would eliminate any z issues, and a nicely constructed dovetail torsion box assembly would allow you to index your parts, enhancing through put of materials.
Bring me a couple KKs when you come visit.
Trip is paid for.
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  #27  
Old Sat 23 November 2013, 13:24
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
The beauty of Gerald's design is its ability to be shaped and molded to fit your needs. Read many threads. I still find myself reading and mine is complete. But I will still modify and build upon others suggestions. I am hoping the next build (if I do one) will be even more robust than this one. Read, study and have fun.
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  #28  
Old Sat 23 November 2013, 15:45
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Darren and Pete (or anyone else).Is there an issue if I take one of my posts in this thread and add the links to pages as I find them? Kind of a catch all post.

On a side note my #1 son (Tony Mai)is now lurking on here as well. He will be instrumental in getting it done so He figured 2 heads on this are better than one.
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  #29  
Old Sat 23 November 2013, 17:38
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
You can only edit a post for several minutes after it is made. I have a lot of spelling errors I wish I could correct but they are locked down. About the best I know you can do is to email yourself the links to later use them. Mike (Metalhead) may be able to help you out. Send him a PM.
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  #30  
Old Sat 23 November 2013, 19:00
Kornerking
Just call me: Pete #127
 
Big Falls, Mn
United States of America
Dang. Thanks fer the heads up though Pete.
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