First surfboard out of big block #91 - Melbourne, AU

[Surfcnc]

Hi Red

I have tested most configurations and I believe that you should not use an x64 controller machine, unless you are using a usb smooth stepper with their x64 driver. Put another way there is no x64 parallel port driver for Mach3 at present.

Note you can however install Mach3 on an X64 system and run gcode to test it but the system is lacking the vital parallel port driver to actually run the machine itself.

With respect to virtual machines the response of the driver is simply to slow inside the VM. Mach3 driver test (drivertest.exe in the root of the Mach install) should give you a very clear indication of this poor response.

Win7 x86 will work without fault as a machine controller.
Hope this clears up any confusion.

Finally the roadrunner is in inches so as you load the file into your millimetre configured controller it should be scaled by around 24x on all axes to return to the original "inches" size.

Regards
Ross

[Alan_c]

Red, cant help on the Win7 question but regards the Road Runner, the original file is set in inches, so if you are running a metric machine it will appear 25.4 times smaller.

[timberlinemd]

Also, if your running Mach3 using the demo version and haven't purchased the licenced version you are limited in how many lines of code is produced. 1000 lines I think.

[Red_boards]

Thanks for the responses. Yep. I see in the ArtSoft videos that the RoadRunner is small, but he uses a 100x100 "table" so it appears OK sized in relation to the table. I've been scaling the Roadrunner by 25.4. I'm glad there's not something basic I missed in the setup. I Mach 3 always going to interpret commands in inches? Is there a line of code I can put in to force mm?

I might install Win XP and see whether there are less issues than the 32 bit Win 7 I currently have installed.

[timberlinemd]

Mach3 Menu->Config->Select Native Units(for motor tuning).
Settings(Alt6) lower right corner mm/inches.

[Alan_c]

BE VERY CAREFULL HERE! The settings in native units are for setting up the machine and are not changed once set (unless you want to redo all your motor tuning and config)

Your CAM program will usually determine the units you work in (inch or metric) once that is set all your files will be correct for your machine, its only when you use files created in inches that if becomes a problem.

Near the start of your cam file will be either a "G20" for inches, or "G21" for metric, this tells your machine which units the file was created in, so using a G20 file on a metric machine will appear very small.

[KenC]

when you
"Mach3 Menu->Config->Select Native Units(for motor tuning).
Settings(Alt6) lower right corner mm/inches."
Mach3 will advice that is not for setting you G-code unit...

The best thing to do is to scale all 3 axis.

[Surfcnc]

Red

Also check the tuning of the motors in Mach3. You will need to set the steps per (mm in your case) in Config, Motor Tuning in the bottom left hand box.
The steps per value is calculated using Gerald's gear speed calculator and takes into account the gear (pinion) size and the microstepping your machine uses.

As this is machine specific no one value is always correct.
If the value is not set for your specific microstepping and gear size, the machine will not move the correct distance when it runs the code regardless of the code being scaled to correct for a controller running inch Gcode in MM's.

Regards
Ross

[zumergido]

question. maybe i didnt get it.
way you trying to use mach3 on a 64bit system if you have windows xp and 2000 already..
windows xp its still a very good system..

[Red_boards]

Fernando,
I could not find XP to buy from a reputable source, so I decided to install Win 7 32 bit on the computer controlling the MM (note that Win 7 has a 32 bit mode and an XP emulator - it's not limited to 64 bit operation) I installed Mach 3 , tested it and things seemed fine, so I continued. Now problems have surfaced, so the change to Win XP is necessary. I'll use the XP license off a computer I'm throwing away. In the future people are going to have difficulty buying XP, so Mach 3 will have to become compatible with newer OS.

All,
Thanks for the help and advice. It sounds as though scaling is the easiest way to get G code inches to mm? I work in mm in CAD, so I hopefully will not have to do this with my own designs, just copied G code.

The tip on G21 (mm) vs G20 (") codes in the programs is useful, thanks. I'll remember this.

I used the auto step calculator in Mach 3 to get steps per in mm and this worked well. It moves 10.0mm for a 10.000mm move in the DROs in Mach 3 and this is repeatable (I ran a G1 loop 50x to check reproducability). No credit to me. The plans and the help on this forum have been the key to getting this far.

I do need to refine my calibration to 10.000 but I've yet to move the machine to a more permanent home than the square of concrete outside the kitchen window, so it's not worth doing yet.

Without gears I'm not sure I can get to accurate thou of a mm moves?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Red

Not exactly sure what your last last few lines were about, but once you move the machine, the settings tab in Mach3 (Alt 6) will allow you to do the final calibration the axis's.
Unless you have a dial indicator, longer moves like 2 meters for the X axis and 1 meter for the Y axis will give you a far more accurate "averaged correction" than smaller moves.

The debate on which operating system is "best" has no end but this screenshot from the Artsoft site clearly sets out what is supported and what is not.

Mach3 Operating System Specs.JPG

Regards
Ross

[Gerald D]

Forget about microns (thou of mm). Even top engineering shops working with heavy CNC steel mills and lathes generally only talk in hundredths of millimeters and thousandths of inches. For the MM, you can consider yourself lucky if you see hundredths of mm (0.01mm) - but you should expect to see twentieths (0.05)

[Red_boards]

Gerald,
Since I was aiming for 1/32" accuracy (because this is what craftsmen achieve in the surf industry), I'm more than happy with how things are shaping up. Especially given my complete inexperience with almost all of the skills required for the build.

Ross,
I'd assumed that partial dissembly and moving the machine might result in things not being exactly the same as before when I put it back together, but I guess you're right - I will only have to so a software recalibration.
Good idea, I'll calibrate using longer moves.

Maybe it's not Mach 3/ Win 7 - maybe it's me not understanding how the software should work. I'm having trouble <ref all home> to a machine co-ordinate zero without overtravel in the hundreds and cannot zero axes without a software restart. I'm following up on the Mach 3 forum.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Red

When the machine is moved the normal levelling and squaring will be required, the steps per will remain the same then a little software calibration after the move and your away.

The machine coordinates are set once the machine is homed to X0 Y0 Z0, this can be done with proximity switches or manually jogged to the limits.
Note the Z is homed to the top of the stroke not to the table top. Once the machine is homed you can press ref all, but only once as it is now "homed".
Put another way you have now defined the machines travel extents and pressing ref all again once the gantry has moved will muck up the machine coordinate system.

After homing the machine you then need to define the work coordinates.
Jog to the 0, 0 ,0 position of the job on the table and then press the individual X Y and Z buttons once everything is where you want it.
These are the individual green buttons on the right of the ref all button in Mach3. See attached.
Buttons.JPG

You can toggle between the Machine coordinate system and the work coordinate system in Mach3 by pressing the Machine Coordinates button.

Machine Coordinates - Button lights surrounded by a red line when in machine coordinates.
Machine coordinates.JPG

Work Coordinates
Work Coordinates.JPG

After the machine is set up pressing the Go To Zero button will return the machine to the 0, 0, 0 position of the work coordinate system you set up second in the sequence.

Regards
Ross

[Red_boards]

Thanks Ross,
I appreciate the time you took to post the screen shots.
That's the way I thought things work.

and then press the individual X Y and Z buttons once everything is where you want it.

This is the thing that does not work. The zero buttons have no effect.
Also, when I restart with the machine manually at zero and the software at zero, and then jog off and "goto zero" I get massive overtravel (to the max value when done off line). I've tried adjusting debounce values (/config/general/[top right])to no avail.
Software?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Red - sounds frustrating to say the least.

I would download a new copy of Mach3 from the website, uninstall the existing software, restart then reinstall it to the controller PC as a first point.

As Mach has soooo many settings it is hard to second guess what is happening (although others might be more informed than me).
I assume the machine jogs in the correct direction etc so why not try using my mill xml file (attached)) on the new Mach install.

Things to be mindful of are my machine size of 2500 x 1300 and I also run Matty Zee's spindle plugin so untick it in config, plugin config if it shows up.
See what happens and just be ready with the Estop button !!

Copy your existing xml files in the root of the Mach3 install directory somewhere safe before you start any reconfiguration.

Mach3Mill.rar

Regards
Ross

[MetalHead]

I would do this setup. Get the machine all zeroed and drive the machine off to wherever on the table. Drive it around a bit even to see if it acts up. Then un hook all the springs and run the "go to home" step after pulling the motors off the rack so it will not move the machine. Repeat this with one motor disconected at a time to see if their may be one of your motor wires acting up.

Also check your shielding for the motors to make sure only one end is grounded. Another thing to try is move the wires around inside your cable tray.
You may be getting cross talk somewhere. What wire did you use for your motors?

Like Ross said, reload MACH3 first. Never hurts to do that.

[smreish]

...I haven't done a lot of in depth reading on this, but.
have you checked:
- that your table coordinates are set correctly. (that the 0,0 in Mach matches your table)
- Orientation of x and y is correct in Mach with relation to table.
- your positive and negative relationships for each access are correct?

Will think about this more when I get to the office shortly.

Sean

[Red_boards]

Thanks, guys. Downloaded an updated version of Mach 3. Installed it and ran off my old xml. Things seem to work the way they should now. I can offset the work co-ordinates, zero and the machine will cut in the correct area. Then I can move the work area (offsets) and re-zero, which I could not do before. There is still an issue homing, but I think this is my settings not the software. Gotta get those home and limit proxies working tonight to stop those crashes.

Ross, thanks for sharing your xml. I'll start it, run though the config to compare and run it offline then online to see what happens. It will help me see where I'm going wrong with homing.

Mike, good idea about unhooking the springs to check homing. Better than hovering over the <esc> key!
I used a 4 core copper shielded wire for all my wiring. had to pull an extra wire or two, but it ensured that my motors were separate from switches. We'll see if there are lost steps when I get the router mounted.

Sean, thanks. I'll be picking your brain if I may when I come to loading foam onto the machine, e.g. How long a bit do you use? (because I guess 3D depth of cut is limited by the depth of the bit and width of the spindle). What do you do about dust collection in deep cuts (use long bristle brushes and raise the dust foot when necessary?). So many things to figure out...

Funny. When I went back to read the installation manuals (there are two - one for Mach 3 and an AN-GEN for the PMDX-125 on Mach 3), I read little paragraphs that now make sense to me but didn't before.
When I read forum posts from guys that bought, rather than built machines, I can see that they are asking questions that we as builders and configurators have had to address head-on. Of course there is a ton of sophistication out there on machine operation that I have no hope of following at the moment.

The hammer is down. Deadline of 30 June for first cut is fast approaching. I better get that router mount welded, drilled and bolted in place!

[smreish]

Red,
Dust collection is a bit of "last thought" with really big foam. It's really more of a manual process.
I personally removed the dust foot and let the open 4" inlet just evacuated what it could To remove debris in the cutting area, I directed a small jet of air to keep the cutter clear, then cleaned up the snow storm later via big vac.

Little tip.

I put the machine in a smallish garage type room during heavy foam use and put a very large (4' dia fan) in the rear wall with a scrim, then filter (cheese cloth like material) to catch all the airborn foam. It worked like a huge wind tunnel. Pretty important, due to some foam is toxic while cutting, thus A LOT of fresh air was important for safety.

[Surfcnc]

A software gremlin hey.
Great news on another hurdle overcome.

Regards
Ross

[Red_boards]

Well it took a while, but I finally got homing working. Mike, I did as you suggested and dropped one gantry motor (the A motor) and worked through all the settings step by step. I got both the X and A motors turning in opposite directions when homing (which is what they need to do), but when i reassembled that awful grinding ensued.

I was pulling my hair out, but eventually checked Motor Tuning. The A motor steps, speed and acceleration were significantly different from the X. This is not a problem for jogging or cutting because of slaving, I guess.
I copied the settings from the X motor tuning to the A and magically "ref all home" was working. My guess is that the slaving applies for jogging and cutting, but not for homing. This fits in with the description elsewhere on this site of how homing works.

[Red_boards]

Time has come to declare this machine worthy of the name. There are still a few things to do (I'm sure it will never end!) and I have to film it cutting the Roadrunner.tap to get a number. I'll do this as time permits over the next couple of weeks. I want to cut a logo out of vinyl. I haven't found images for the MechMate logo. Can someone point me to them if they exist?

[Kobus_Joubert]

They are somewhere in this jungle, but all you need is to take the Lasercut DXF file. and CUT it out of the bottom right hand side of the lable page.
Good luck

MM logo DXF.dxf

[Red_boards]

Dankie, Kobus

[Kobus_Joubert]

Plesier, I only want to see you earn that serial nr.

[Red_boards]

Firstly a reply to Kobus: It's coming along. Just slowly. A couple of hours a week are not conducive to getting things going.

Now here's something I learned over in the Mach 3 support forum. It's a response from the moderator to my queries similar to #172 above (it also made me feel a bit less stupid about the dramas I'd been having):

Homing is not slave if you have separate switches. I somehow had different homing speeds setup once, and it took me a while to figure out what was going on. Wink

If you want to use one home switch with a slaved axis, there's an option in General Config, "Home Slave with Master", which will slave them during homing.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Red

Nicely sorted, I "slavishly" rechecked my slaved drive setting every time I modified anything.
It is easy to see how the two sets of numbers might stray after a bit of fiddling.

Hope you got into some of that swell from the southern ocean weather bomb.
Here in QLD we just watched the vids and pics of you guys getting plenty!!
Tassie was insane / scary - freely admitting I'm too old for that power.

At the peak of the swell a mate got smashed at the Queenscliff Bombie on the Sydney Northern beaches by a rogue set.
Hmm that's power, this was not run over by a car as it might seem.
three bits.jpg

Now you have the beast (just) running, I would like to ask you to share your hold down solution for your blanks as you sort through it.
Call me lazy but I have been in no hurry to do this myself as it has only been a small part of my motivation in the MM build.
Regardless I will be very disappointed if my MM does not shape me a board or two for my personal use over the longer term.

Regards
Ross

[smreish]

Are you asking how to hold down the foam billets and blanks on the spoil board surface for cutting?
Are you doing 1 side or 2 sided registered 3d cutting (thus, flipping the cut part to machine the other side too?)

[Surfcnc]

Hi Sean

The "blanks" as we refer to them as are already pre blown into a roughly surfboard shape.
This makes them curvy to start with and way more difficult to deal with than a block of material might be.
The cutting is done in two stages, bottom first then flipped to cut the top.

The issues are firstly registration of the blank and secondly how it is actually secured.
I have seen many takes on how it is done from clamping/ spiking of the center line wooden stringer to vacuum pods.
Typically the blanks are registered nose and tail and held with two vacuum pods across the center of the board to limit the flex as the cutter runs up and down the blank.

I'm fishing on this one, you know it goes like this - something easy, something cheep , something that works and maybe avoiding a vacuum set up.
Red has been around on this one so I'm thinking he might have some good ideas.

I'm guessing Red will use a software app called BoardCAD to produce the models for the blanks, the shapes themselves and the Gcode to cut both the top and bottom.
For your reference if you are interested ...
Software - http://www.boardcad.com/news.php
Blank - http://www.shapers.com.au/products/6...ish-Blank.html

Regards
Ross