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  #1  
Old Tue 01 July 2008, 15:37
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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Z-Slide travel dilemmas !

Copied from another thread . . . .

. . . . If one use the ELIMINATOR collet chuck on a typical Porter Cable 7518 . . . .

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  #2  
Old Tue 01 July 2008, 15:51
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
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The "Eliminator" chuck

Robert,

On the subject of Eliminator Chuck... I, like you, have used the EC successfully in my router table for years. Never a problem. I had trouble with all of the posts on the CNC zone about how it just doesn't work for CNC. I personally thought it was all a bunch of crap. So, I brought one to JR to try on the MM and...

to my shock and amazement, IT JUST DIDN'T WORK!!!! It let the bit slip on several occasions and it NEVER did that on my router table. I can't really explain it other that the obvious difference in torque applying pressure to the bit in the MM as opposed to hand fed wood in a router table.

I have no other explanation. I just wanted to let you know about my personal experience. I admit that I am biased. I love the EC. But don't use it. For what it is worth...
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  #3  
Old Tue 01 July 2008, 20:48
J.R. Hatcher
Just call me: J.R. #4
 
Wilmington, North Carolina
United States of America
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I would like to ask, is anyone using the eliminator chuck on a cnc router with success? Thanks J.R.
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  #4  
Old Wed 02 July 2008, 06:23
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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Hi Marc
Well worth & interesting point you bring up.
I was wondering about this issue ??... but not there yet !
I’ve been using this type of chuck for… lets just say so many yrs and in my shop where I have a couple of router tables set up with some power feeders for production I can attest it has happen where the end mill / router bit as slipped in some rare occasion !!
Bear in mind my power feeders are never set up at max feed rate, witch there’re adjustable from 6.5 to 108 FPM. (averaged from 22 Ipm to 36 Ipm = 264 to 432 Ips! )
Best I can recall last it happen is I torque this side screw a tab more to solved the issue ( At least from what I could pick up & measure from the finish work?!!).
Talking about measurement… maybe monitoring this screw torque value?

I’ll see in to this with more attention and try to search / find some type of solution aside of “not using it” and will come back with my findings.


Robert
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  #5  
Old Wed 02 July 2008, 11:21
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
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Robert,

That would be good of you. Better facts would be excellent.

My response to the first slippage was: "that was weird, must not have been tight" and I torqued it harder. When it did it again, my response was: "that was really weird" and I torqued it even harder. When it did it again, JR and I responded with: "let's get that thing off of there!".

The only thing making the experience itself questionable was the fact that the bit was a 1/4" shank bit in a collet reducer "sleeve".

Robert or anyone else...

Additional thoughts?
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  #6  
Old Wed 02 July 2008, 11:36
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Are you sure the bit was 1/4" and not 6mm? That type of thing happens here a lot where we have a total mix of metric & inch cutters.
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  #7  
Old Wed 02 July 2008, 15:38
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
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I wish that were the answer because, as I said, I am a big fan of the EC. But, sadly, I am positive that it was 1/4 inch.
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  #8  
Old Wed 02 July 2008, 18:27
RLH3
Just call me: Roman
 
Reno, NV
United States of America
Does it do it with a half inch bit? (or is that what was tested at the beginning of the thread and I am just being dense?!?)
I have used the eliminator quite a bit in a regular router table also and think that it is a great thing.

Roman
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  #9  
Old Wed 02 July 2008, 20:10
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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Roman,

Usually we try as much as possible to use ½” SHANK router bits & end mills to minimize the usage of an additional bushing with this ELIMINATOR chuck, since it’s only made for ½” shank.
Using additional bushing increases the risk of slippage under “hard duty / load” usage.
As you experience, when light hand work is done with it, seldom ( if ever) it may slip !
Later, Robert
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  #10  
Old Thu 03 July 2008, 06:25
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
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J.R. and I have been using a 1/4" solid carbide upcut spiral mostly when cutting items out of 3/4 inch sheet goods. These are available primarily in 1/4" shanks thus requiring the sleeve/bushing. We have not tried to find the same bit in a 1/2" shank. I just assumed that it would be rediculously expensive.

Does anyone know of such a bit at a "reasonable" price?
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  #11  
Old Thu 03 July 2008, 06:57
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
We find the 1/4" on the small side for 5/8" and thicker sheets - it needs too many passes. It is the same tip that does the cutting for each pass, so the number of boards per cutter is relatively low.

On the other hand, 1/2" cutters are rather expensive, they loose detail inside corners, need stronger clamping and produce a lot more sawdust.

3/8" seems a good medium. Can the Eliminator handle 3/8"?
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  #12  
Old Thu 03 July 2008, 08:04
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
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I have always wondered about exactly what you described regarding the tradeoffs between 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 inch cutters. The 3/8 spiral upcut cutters I have seen are also straight shank and would therefore also require a sleeve. I will look around for other cutters.

Sean, you are being awful quiet on this topic. We can usually count on you for good cutter advice...
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  #13  
Old Thu 03 July 2008, 08:10
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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Not as easy as I expected to get info out of the manufacturer!
No one I called wants to cooperate in giving me coordinates or telephone # for the ELIMINATOR RC chuck manufacturer !

So Meantime I get it, calling on plan “B” !
I believe we should use the full strength of the weakest point, the holding cap-screw !
Since it is a #10-32thread, it seems to be made of std low carbon steel, than as per charts, it should not be torqued more than +/- 30 inch/Lbs !

If after applying this measured torque it still slips, I would be tempted to try another plausible solution. By some easy means, try to ruff out the shank’s smooth shiny finish with a wire brush grinder wheel !

If one respect using only ½” shanks, proper torque and some kind of “anti-smooth” surface of the shank, I’d be puzzled if this still slips, but not surprised !!
I would be glad to try, but not yet there in the “CNC Owner / DIY group” guys
Later tomorrow or beginning of next week, I plan to “abuse” of my router table w/power feeder again. Will pay attention and “obey” to those simple principles and share my results.

Gerald : Best I know of & latest search, the ELIMINATOR is only made for 1/2" shanks, a 3/8” shank would defiantly require a reduction bushing witch = welcome to slippage land !!

Marc, as far as Solid carbide upcut bits, ¼” with ½” shank is STD and easy to get. I use Onsrud #52-285 w/1” of cut ( +/- 20$) or if the extra length is needed, there’s #52-287 w 1.125” of cut at +/- $23 !
Shop around you’ll be surprised!
Also, lots of resellers can/will give pro-shops discount on these, they want your business !!

Amiclalement, Robert
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  #14  
Old Thu 03 July 2008, 09:18
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Okay, Marc called me out.
I am somewhat of a traditionalist. I like a collet. It holds, it's cheap, I have a lot of them in the required sizes. Additionally, I tend to have a bit in each collet sitting in tool tray so change out is really quick.

On cutting bits.

I have found that I like 1/4" bits due to cost and detail I can get on inside corners. This reduces labor time if SQUARE inside is needed - like in a laminated cabinet.

I have found that the cut depth & diameter rule really applies here. Try to never exceed the tool diameter per pass unless the substrate really easily allows it. Thus, 3/4" ply = 3 passes of a 1/4" bit. 2 passes with a 3/8" bit, 1 pass with a 1/2".

All these methods have a speed consequence When I take into account depth of pass with speed. I usually find that the TOTAL time to complete a sheet is darn close to each other regardless of bit choice if I stick to the rule. Plus, the router doesn't scream in pain

Spindles have a much higher tolerance to speed abuse and can easily bend the "machinist rule of thumb" for machining vs. bit diameter.

My little ole' opinion.
Sean
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  #15  
Old Thu 03 July 2008, 09:33
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M View Post
. . . the holding cap-screw !
Since it is a #10-32thread, it seems to be made of std low carbon steel, . . .
Allen socket head cap screws around here are nearly always made of a really high tensile steel. Good screws have more than double the strength of std low carbon steel screws. I am sure the Eliminator people would choose a really good screw for this important appliction.
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  #16  
Old Thu 03 July 2008, 11:44
J.R. Hatcher
Just call me: J.R. #4
 
Wilmington, North Carolina
United States of America
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But remember if you were to over tighten then you can't get the cutter out because of the dimple it made in the shank. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
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  #17  
Old Sat 05 July 2008, 08:37
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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Eliminator chuck !!

Maybe this thing should be ether eliminated for some market / users or have some serious precaution label on it !!
Till yesterday, I was using this chuck on some hand held routers & a couple of router tables in my shop with out real problems aside of a few rare occasional slippage ( many yrs in service)!!
Yesterday I decided to try it with a plunge router & a tenon jig we use ( leigh FMT ).
My my, what a discovery & disaster in the waiting !.
When making tenon, I surly don’t need to remind anyone it as to be more precise than plain making molding or ¼ rounding & beading with any hand held router or invert mounted on a table !.
Long story shorten, it was producing only convex cheeks type tenon on my tests ???
Yep, convex ( I mean it had a bulge in the middle cheek section where it should be perfectly straight & square with the shoulders, perfect perpendicular).
That got me scratching my head for quite some time, and that goes without saying lots of testing before finding the “culprit” !
This Eliminator RC is made with a tighten screw pulling a bushing (for lack of not finding the right English term for it, I’ll call it a bushing). Thus this bushing is suppose to exert a lateral pressure on the shank & holding it in it’s position helped with the opposed wall where it’s inserted in to ( hoping I’m explaining it in an understandable fashion for everybody?? )
Anyway, after a few hrs I finally found that this bushing is not grounded (machined) with the precision it should be, resulting in a wobbly bit in it’s seat, therefore creating this convex shape.

All this story of mine is to advise Marc, JR & other fans of this Eliminator device, why with more reasons it should not be used for CNC. I’m just less ignorant from this experience and understand more why bits are slipping out of this device.
In my case, even after trying to correct the bushing ( seen pics), it still ad some “uneven” pressure points. Would need to get another bushing done/made with a stronger type of steel, cause this one is made of a to soft type of steel vs the carbide shank strength, result is the shank crushes this bushing iif it is a little off it’s axe.

On another note, for my tenon application, I pushed the envelop while testing & tried another similar device we occasionally use (Xtreme Xtension From Woodpeckers). Right away, in my opinion, you can tell it’s a better made & thought-of product. Same type of system as far as clamping the shank, except it uses a better tolerance & material resulting in a flawless tenon making & no bit slippage so far !

Hoping again I shed some light on this Eliminator issue and that my story is not too lengthy
Amicalement, Robert

See this link some photos I’ve taken while testing !
Ps : all my test with ether the ELIMINATOR of the Xtreme Xtension, the screw was torque to 70in-lbs.
If you use full carbide bits, they will not be damaged ( dimple as per JR!) by these devices since carbide is lot stronger than carbide tip steel shank bits witch will get this dimple by the bushing if torque to much ! On the other hand, with the Xtreme Xtension chuck no dimple was notice on ether steel or full carbide bits. Goes to say it is better made & design.
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  #18  
Old Sat 05 July 2008, 11:40
J.R. Hatcher
Just call me: J.R. #4
 
Wilmington, North Carolina
United States of America
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"All this story of mine is to advise Marc, JR & other fans of this Eliminator device.........".
Robert I have only used the Eliminator chuck twice. Both times was on my MechMate and both times I ended up with terrible results , (bit being pulled out of the chuck) so I am no fan of the eliminator chuck . Just want to make sure my likes and dislikes are out in public view. Thanks
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  #19  
Old Sat 05 July 2008, 11:55
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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JR,

Sorry if I put your name in the “fan” quote & came across in a potential offensive interpretation of your finding … AU CONTRAIRE my friend !
I did this little research / report hoping to bring valuable facts to this slippage findings. Just I found some other terrible results aside of slippage !!??
You’re absolutely right, this device is not recommendable and to me you’re not a “fan” of it and never was!
Amicalement, Robert
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  #20  
Old Sat 05 July 2008, 12:13
J.R. Hatcher
Just call me: J.R. #4
 
Wilmington, North Carolina
United States of America
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Robert I used the little faces to say no offense was taken. Just wanted to make sure I was on the right side (the I don't like the thing side)

Last edited by J.R. Hatcher; Sat 05 July 2008 at 12:16..
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  #21  
Old Sat 05 July 2008, 12:22
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
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No, I am the fan and will continue to use the EC in my router table and other handheld situations where I've had PERFECT results.

Regards,
Marc
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  #22  
Old Wed 25 February 2009, 04:23
kanankeban
Just call me: Hector #89
 
Monterrey
Mexico
Robert,
How do you mount those pieces of wood in the mechmate to do the tenons?
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  #23  
Old Wed 25 February 2009, 15:36
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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Sorry hector, no MechMate done YET, nor any CNC in my shop for that matter !
You must of past over the 4th line of my bellow post #17 where I specify I make my tenons on a tenoning jig made by a company called Leigh, the jig it self is called “FMT” !

Sorry buddy.... But here are 3 inside MM links + 1 toll manufacturer link ( A, B, C, D )that I invite you to look & read at. None are on the how to for making tenons but will show you some inspiring way to make joinery on a CNC, then use some ingenuity & imagination and you should be able to manage to make some on your nice BB !

Hope this will gide & help you, Amicalement Robert
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