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  #511  
Old Wed 29 October 2014, 21:13
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
That is the only benefit of designing your own, you can pick your own bearings. I only used bearings from the 600x series. Inch bearings are too expensive. Keep an eye open, you will find them at a reasonable price sooner or later.

Don't stop thinking about where the problem is. You will find that it is always hiding waiting to pop its little head out and bite you. I don't have vacuum holddown and cut 0.2500" (6.35mm) and 0.125" (3.18mm) and 0.0625" (1.59mm) and rarely experience chatter. I do have belt reduction now. In my rush to complete the Mechmate I missed a lot, I learned more after my serial number was obtained and that cost me some time and money. You are on the right track, don't get discouraged and keep us updated. Sometimes just talking you will answer your own questions.
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  #512  
Old Wed 29 October 2014, 21:46
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Thanks Pete. My drives will be 3:1 and am tossing up on which pinion to use.

I have 4x 20T that are at the moment drilled to 8mm and already have 10mm and 12mm hardened steel rod. I would say that the 20T should be OK drilled to 10mm however the 12mm would be too big for them. But then again, is 10mm too small for the shaft attaching the pinion and driving the machine?

I was looking for 1/2" bearings because my current 30T pinions are drilled for 12.7mm to fit the motor shafts although I haven't yet tried to source 1/2" bar here in metric land.=

I will never stop looking to find problems, that is one thing my wife always says is that I am never satisfied unless I can nut problems out. I went "wow" when I saw you cut >2mm, I already tried some 3mm to terrible results

I already know I want to improve/replace my angle, that is far from perfect and is undoubtedly causing some of my issues. Whether to go with v-rail or even to hiwin linear's is a conundrum as well as a cost
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  #513  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 00:29
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
We ordered our flange bearings from VXB anywhere I found them in Aus the wanted about $50 each, Just found the order part # FR8-2RS $98 for 8 including shipping.
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  #514  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 00:33
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
Sorry just saw your other post, 1/2 hardened rod from Tea Transmissions. Used my horizontal borer with a grinding stone to machine the flats and used the lathe with a 1mm blade in the grinder to cut to length then finished the ends of with a flapper sanding disc in the grinder while the lathe spun. All turned pretty nice to me.
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  #515  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 00:47
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Thanks for the pointer to the bearings, was trying to stay away from ordering o'seas but in this day and age I am finding it impossible to do. I came across the same pricing you did for the bearings here. How much did TEA sting you for the 1/2" rod? If its not too steep I might get 24T pinions from them as well..
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  #516  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 01:46
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
I agree we have tried to buy as much as possible in Oz but when the price difference is so big I have purchased from OS. Found the Tea order looks like it was $20 for 500mm min order and $17 for delivery, we got our pinions from there to.
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  #517  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 01:49
Duds
Just call me: Dale
 
Canberra
Australia
I payed 13.5 gst exclusive ea. total 59.4 inclusive gst for 4 36T
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  #518  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 02:02
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
Just checked we paid $15.50 including so about the same price. We got 24T from memory ran direct drive for a while.

On a side note, we use a 2.4mm straight bit to cut 3mm MDF nicely.
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  #519  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 03:20
Tom Ayres
Just call me: Tom #117
 
Bassett (VA)
United States of America
Bruce a 20t can be bored to 14mm which is what I did to fit my steppers, In fact I think an 18t can be done the same. Can't remember the type of gear though, memory lapse.
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  #520  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 04:45
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Thanks guys, appreciated. Should I use 20T or 24T with 3:1?
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  #521  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 04:52
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
I'm no expert on this but we are using the 24T on a 4:1 so I would guess the 20T would be better, but I remember somewhere the guys talking about having to small a pinion doesn't give enough teeth meshing in the rack. Any comments people?
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  #522  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 05:28
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
I use 24 T on my 4:1 as well. ( or was it 25 teeth )

Two problems with the 20 tooth: the smaller the pinion means less smooth running on the rack, more wear, and I think in a 20 tooth there's also (almost) no room for the axle. It's up to you but if I remember correctly you definitively do not want to go under 20 t pinions. I think with a three to one I would settle in between somewhere 21/22 T ?

I am in the (sane) metric part of the world, this matters when talking about pinions and mod !

Last edited by Fox; Thu 30 October 2014 at 05:35..
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  #523  
Old Thu 30 October 2014, 15:04
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Mine is 20PA with 30 teeth. I don't know what that translates to in metric module.

My reductions are 7.2:1 and 4:1 and they both have the same rack type and pinion.
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  #524  
Old Fri 31 October 2014, 17:37
Tom Ayres
Just call me: Tom #117
 
Bassett (VA)
United States of America
I'm currently operating 3.6:1 (20t and 72t belt gears) with a 30t pinion (like Pete). I was using 24t pinion direct to start with (and used to cut out my belt reduction plates). On my last post (519) I was referring to the belt gearing not pinion gear to clear confusion, if any.
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  #525  
Old Sat 01 November 2014, 03:30
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Hmmm, thanks guys. What I might do is try out my 30T pinions with 3:1 and see how it cuts. They are already at 1/2" so I'll just grab some 1/2" rod from TEA and run with that. If it goes pear shaped I'll shell out for different pinions.
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  #526  
Old Sun 02 November 2014, 04:29
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
Sounds like a plan to me, spend nothing first and if it works great you have saved more beer money. That's why I'm still using our 24T.
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  #527  
Old Thu 06 November 2014, 04:47
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
So now I am fighting to keep my surfaced spoilboard flat. Because of the fluctuating weather here in Sydney's west, from sub 20 C at night, sometimes mid 20 C during the day along with a few high 30 C days thrown in for good measure, my MDF top is changing shape. I have already surfaced it twice and now because of hot weather a few days ago I need to do it again.

Does anyone seal their surfaced MDF tops (if so what with?) or does anyone have any suggestions how I might keep the damn thing flat once I surface again this weekend....
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  #528  
Old Thu 06 November 2014, 06:37
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
MDF is like a sponge with moisture. But so are most woods. No different than not sealing a maple countertop on the bottom and watching it bow as the seasons change. Even steel moves with temperature. My MM is in a constant temperature and humidity room and the MDF changes thickness. Finding a suitable material that is impervious to temperature and humidity is near impossible but controlling factors is usually the route most try to go. If that is not feasible, you may be able to try to using an engineered wood that is made for weather like Advantech but be careful on your choices because like MDF the dust and chemicals may not be the best for the body. You can try sealing with a sealer but remember to be vigilant as a cut that removes the sealer will give an entry point for water infiltration. Sorry if this does not answer your question.
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  #529  
Old Thu 06 November 2014, 07:10
servant74
Just call me: Jack
 
Nashville (Tennessee)
United States of America
Bruce,

Pete is right.

MDF is good because it is cheap. But it is also wood so it does move with changes in humidity and temperature. Such is life with any wood.

A few of things to try (singly or in combination):

1) Thicker spoilboard.

2) Put down a 'better' sub-spoilboard, like thick (1" or 25MM or so) plywood, then glue thick MDF to it.

3) On the bottom side, I would consider putting a torsion box below the spoil board if it is extreme warping.

4) Worst case, go to a plastic spoilboard, like a big piece of HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene). Probably still needs that on top of a more stable backing material or torsion box.

On the downside: Many of these will reduce your effective Z travel. Don't know how important that is to you in your situation.

5) One last thing... Box in the room with the MM, and run a small HVAC/heat pump that can also act as a dehumidifier. Keeping the temp and humidity in control should help. Also keep your stock in there for a couple of days before using it to acclimate it before cutting.

Just some thoughts.

Last edited by servant74; Thu 06 November 2014 at 07:13.. Reason: Yet another idea.
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  #530  
Old Thu 06 November 2014, 18:17
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Thanks guys... it is not so much warping, I have 2 layers of 18mm MDF with the top sheet of 18mm glued to the bolted spoilboard. All of these have been sealed with paint on every face except the surfaced bit. The movement isn't that much but is detectable in profile cuts, I zero to the table top and 90% of my cuts are perfect and do not touch the spoilboard itself, the other 10% will leave an onion skin of varying thicknesses. When I work immediately after surfacing I get 100% cut through without touching the spoilboard.

I guess when I get my dust collection worked out (yes, I have surfaced twice without it!) I can do a quick skim of the top if the weather has been nasty. My last efforts at 750ipm didn't take long....

Last edited by racedirector; Thu 06 November 2014 at 18:23.. Reason: Spelling & grammer
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  #531  
Old Thu 06 November 2014, 18:23
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Rightio, next question...

I designed my machine to take 2400x1200 sheets making sure I allowed the standard 50mm around all edges of the sheet. Well, for some reason it hasn't turned out like that. I have between 75 and 100mm at the 0,0 end and *just* miss down the 2400 end. The 1200 bit is fine. I checked all the physical measurements against my drawings and am pretty much spot on. However....

My question is.... which holes in the Y do you guys have your Z spider attached to? I have mine in the 2nd back from the motor side which allows me to use the big hole in the top of the Y to attach my cable chain for the Z. I have seen some using the 2nd back, some the 3rd back. My Z is standard aside from using a 2.2Kw spindle that sits on a 6mm adaptor plate.

Interested to hear your experiences in attaining the full 2500mm travel of the bit....
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  #532  
Old Thu 06 November 2014, 20:14
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
Just another note on the spoil boards, we have a 25mm MDF board bolt to the MM which we surfaced then coated in flooring polyurethane. I then attach a 16-18mm spoil board which I usually get a cover sheet from my supplier. Best sheets I have found are the moisture resistant ones with melamine coating. Just flipped the sheet over and did some pocket cuts with a .2mm depth variance.
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  #533  
Old Sat 08 November 2014, 13:02
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Bruce, my spider is mounted in the furthest set of slots back.
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  #534  
Old Fri 28 November 2014, 04:44
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Strange problem (when will they ever end!)

First though, I have been making my dust collection bits and making some changes.. My Z is now is the 3rd hole back from the motor side and all is now well with the spacing over the ends of the spoilboard. One good thing. My dust shoe is complete and is based on one of the commercial ones utilising magnets to hold the brush on.

However I have his ongoing problem with my Z motor. It couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and it gets far hotter than any other during cut operations which, in my option is strange.

It is strange because *all* my motors are the same, these: http://ausxmods.com.au/index.php?mai...products_id=13, all the controllers are the same (AM882's) with all the same settings. The pinions are the same (30T) as are the racks, all run direct drive (at this stage). All the motors are wired Bipolar Parallel and run at 50V. However, while I can't stop the X or the Y by pushing against them, the Z will stall at the drop of a hat, further amplified by the addition of the dust shoe meaning it will not plunge with the brush on at all (once the brush hits the job surface). There is absolutely no chance of ever lifting the Y or X off the rails by plunging the Z into the table. The gas strut on the Z just holds it one place and with the motor disconnected from the rack I can push it down and pull it back up again easily.

Now, I have swapped controller, swapped motors and pulled my hair out all to no avail so I am turning to you guys. Any ideas on this one?
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  #535  
Old Fri 28 November 2014, 04:57
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
You ran out of hair to pull yet? LOL

1) Gas spring too strong.
2) to much load on the Z-axis motor, i.e. too heavy
3) 24T worked for me, not 30T. 24 T has higher mechanical ratio.
4) add Z-axis 3:1 belt reduction will cure all

Z move the least, I assume you set full-current at rest like most did. pulls full current at rest hence the heat. if it moves more often, its cooler.

# I'd swapped to ball screw Z-axis after solving similar problem you encountered.

Last edited by KenC; Fri 28 November 2014 at 05:02..
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  #536  
Old Fri 28 November 2014, 05:01
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Just got back from the garage after trying something with no difference, I swapped the controllers between the Y and the Z. One thing I did notice that even after the machine had been sitting doing nothing for the past 4 hours the Z motor was too hot to hold my hand on it for any length of time, the X & Y motors were stone cold.

Tomorrow I will swap the Z and Y motors over to see what happens.
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  #537  
Old Fri 28 November 2014, 05:04
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
You should check the motor coils for continuity with a DMM before you swap them around.
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  #538  
Old Fri 28 November 2014, 05:09
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Ken, just saw your reply.

1. Explained above, Z gas spring is easy to push up and down by hand and just (and only just) holds the Z in place. Replaced a stronger spring with this one due to being charged to high.

2. Could have something there although I have nothing but what usually goes on the Z (aside maybe from a 2.2Kw water cooled spindle) on the Z

3. Will spend some more money when I have it on lesser count pinions or will get my A into G and make my belt drives. However, don't want to attempt cutting aluminium with a piss weak Z.

All controllers are set the same, half current on idle, which is why I find the Z motor being hot while the others are stone cold strange.

# Would dearly love a ballscrew Z along with linear rails. Have both of those planned in the future

Thanks for your input, appreciated.

Cheers
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  #539  
Old Fri 28 November 2014, 05:12
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenC View Post
You should check the motor coils for continuity with a DMM before you swap them around.
Good point, will do.

I found the wiring for these motors to be strange, in biploar parallel mode the shafts spin freely and only lock up when power is applied. My previous Nema 23's shafts had resistance when wired BP and locked up solid when power was applied. I did check this with the supplier but they confirmed that's what these Nema 34's do. Was tempted to replace them all with another make but ran out of cash to do so.

Oh, and not quite out of hair yet but getting close, the bald patch on the top of my head is getting larger
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  #540  
Old Fri 28 November 2014, 05:23
clarson66
Just call me: Chris & Leon #100
 
Adelaide
Australia
That's the same motors I run. Difference is I'm running Gecko drives, until we installed the 4:1 drive reduction I had issues with the z axis pulling into the job sometimes with upcut bits. I also had issues that if you reached over the z axis to grab the dust tube off sometimes if you leant on the top of the axis it would drop. All is well now with the drive reduction.
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