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  #1  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 05:18
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Membrane Press

Hi guys, I am back again. Could not do anything much with my mechmate due to me getting bogged down in other business activities. But whenever the time allows I log in and see whats going on in this site.

Does any of you guys have experiance i working with membrane press machines. I reason that I am asking this question is the due to te fact that a leading furniture retailer has shown some interest in joining up with us to manufacture Kitchen cabinetry as well as Office Furniture. They need to do all stuff with MDF and PVc Thermofoil.

By reading on this subject Iunderstand that it is essntial to have a membrane press for this type of work. Buying a new press would cost more than
US $ 50,000. I do not want to to spend this much on a new business that I am venturing into since it is very risky.

Gerald, I read in another forum that you contributed to a thread which did not take off as expected. What basically happens in a menbrane press is given belwo.

1. The MDF or any substrate is layed horizonatlly on a bed.
2. Glue is applied on the substrate.
3. Then The PVC foil is layed on top.
4. A thick Polyurethane film is layed on top.
5. The complete setup is vacuumed and while being vacuumed the thing is heated up using IR heaters.

A link to a video showing the complete process is given below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYVNenoqcrU

I am very keen on making a press like this on my own. If any person is interested in sharing their know how with me, They are most welcome.
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  #2  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 05:31
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Given below is a link to a site which provides good info on how to build a vacuum press.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneeri...rame-press.htm

Vacuum presses on use vacuum to bind the PVC veneer on o the substrate. A membrane press is actually a vacuum press plus a heating system.

Follow the link below. It shows you a frame press. This is the thing which gets pused under the heating source after being layered with the MDF , Glue and the PVC foil.

http://www.vacupress.com/FramePress.htm
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  #3  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 05:50
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Another Interesting link is give below. This link provides you with some usefull info on how IR bulbs are being used as the heating source.

http://www.almex-online.com/vacuum_press.htm

Thier are two stages in the heating process. First he PVC laminate gets heated up. This is before vacuum pressure is applied. This is to improve the flexibilility of the PVC. This very crucial when you are laminating 3D profiles. The second heating stage is while vacuum pressure is applied. Both stages do not last for more than a few minutes amd the temperature being appllied is not more than 120 Deg celcius. In this machine you would see that the heat source is IR lights (short wave).

I have a few challenges at the moment. First is I need to find a translucent silicon rubber sheets. These sheets should be temp resistant upto 150de celcius. and also should have good tear resistance to withstand vacuum pressure. The dimensions of the sheet should be at least 5' x 9' in order to accomadate a 4'x 8' MDF or particle board sheet. The other challenge would be to find a proper heating source. IR bulbs would be the best bet at the moment.
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  #4  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 06:05
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
FABRICA

I have a membrane press.Note that if you have a lot of work for it it is a bonus but there is a lot to think about before you venture into this .
You get two methods of thermo foiling.
1. vacume press where the foil itselve becomes the membrane
2. vacume with a silicone membrane that coveres the whole area that needs to be foiled.

Wastage is a huge problem also if your vacume ratio to the heat is not right you end up with creases.You can lose the whole table of doors if that happens.the right glue needs to be used also pot life is not long.
I have had my machine 4 years now and it is a bonus. the company that I bought mine from are in Port Elizabeth.
I will PM you the details they do export and you can buy a machine to suit your needs depending on the volume of doors that you plan to make.
Also you need space and a lot of it. your machine needs to stand in a dust free area.
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  #5  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 06:06
Art
Just call me: Art #2
 
Lancaster,Texas
United States of America
Membrane press

I have built a press and they are easy and fairly cheap to build. The IR heaters speed up the drying and I have never worked with them. As an alternate to using the IR heater you might consider building several and mounting them slightly off vertical to reduce floor space used. Also you can use the compressor from a referator or freezer as the vacumn source. The CFM needed is low because less than 2 cubic feet of air needs to be removed and there is very little leakage and they will pull 24" without any problem. Depending on the drying time for the glue you cound build (6?) presses and by the time you get all the presses loaded the first one should be dry. The main expence would be the steel for the frame. If you only want to do a 4' by 8' sheet then the presses could be built for less than $1000 USD each here in the US. Hope that gives you some idea of what your local cost would be. If you want more details I will be glad to help.
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  #6  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 06:10
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
I will try and post some pic`s of my machine maybee it can help.rather go for a 2900 mm x 1300 mm table size your wastage is less.note that this thing pulls 80 amps per fase when it starts up so power supply to your shop will also be a thing to look at. It takes 2 minutes for the whole process.
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  #7  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 07:00
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
First of all Let me thank Hennie and Art for providing me with quick replies to my post.

Hennie,
You have said tahtyou could do thermofoiling without heat. I would be a big blessing if it is so. Please educate me on this. I am new to this business. Below given is a link to a thermofoil manufacturers site. If you follow the link you will get an idea of th type of material I intend to work with.

http://www.renolit.com/English/BUSIN...r_Overview.htm

If I only use vacuum pressing what will be my disadvantages. I do not forsee a lot of work at last at the begining of the business.

The maximum number of sheets I will be working with would be around 5 heets per day. Based on this figure due still recomend that I should go in for a new industry grade machine. Anyway will be interestd in talking to to the manufacturer from whom you bought your machine. Please send me their contact details.

Dear Art,

I do think that one press would do for the moment. If you can send to me the details of how you built the machine that would be a great help. I already do have a 6 CFM vacuum pump. Art do you mean to say that the IR heat only helps you to expedite the curing process and does not in any manner affect the quality of the job.

I was made to understand bythe Renolit (thermofoil manufacturer) agent in India (who looks after Sri Lankan market as well) that Heat application is a must when it comes to thermoforming. Maybe I misunderstood what he said.
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  #8  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 08:44
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
Fabrica

No, you do need heat. the foil starts to losen up its stifness at about 40 deg, at 70 deg you can manipulate the foil to go into the profiles or patterns that you have cut on your door. this is about the temp that the glue starts ( lets call it melting ) at 90 plus deg the magic takes place.We never go over a 105 deg.

From 75 - 105 deg we run the vacume pump at 90 kpa.Remeber that the vacume must be strong enough to actually suck air through the mdf.
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  #9  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 08:57
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
I understand your point. Hennie are their any laminates which work without heat. One more thing in your machine what is the heat source. Is it IR or normal electrical heaters. What is the total wattage used and also how does the machine sense the temperature. Is it through a non contact type temperature sensor.
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  #10  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 08:57
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
Do your homework. See who is your competition which other company is making doors in your area.If there is one close to you see what it will cost you to outsorce your doors and pannels compare what it would cost you to make your own doors.You will be amazed how many doors you have to make before you break even.Find out if renolit supplies what you require for one project ( 30 - 40 meters at a time order) or do you have to buy a full block of foil. If you have to buy a full block and it has to stand then it is money standing doing nothing.If we only make doors we have to make +/- 20 000 doors/pannels a month to be economically viable.
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  #11  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 09:04
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
We have competition all right. But we do not have any job shops as such who undertake other peoples work. All machine owners have their finished products in the market. But one thing I do know is that they keep good margins on their products.

Renolit does supply in small qty's. If you have 20,000 door orders per month I would be the first guy to invest in a industrial grade machine. But for guys like us who plan to start with small volumes their should be a way out.

Still in this country labour is cheap. We could use manual labour instead of automation when ever possible.
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  #12  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 09:05
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
IR heating, it does have a sensor built in. in total there are 45 IR elements in the machine.

You can use a cold glue for laminating .Get hold of your adhesive supplier there are glues on the market for that but you still need vacume to give you the pressure to press the laminate on the board and if you use it without heat it just takes so much longer.You wont be able to do 3d foiling with the cold process.
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  #13  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 09:07
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
I wish they would sell small quantity`s to us.That is the reason I dont support them.
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  #14  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 09:32
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
I know that Renolit is avialable in S. Africa. I can remember Gerald mentioning this fact in some other forum.

What is the make of the Thermofoil that you are using at the moment. can you give me a price indication of Renolit and other thermofoils avaialble in your market. Can you send me some pics of the machine that you own. Specially the heat source as well as the slide mechanism.
Thanks again for the help that you have provided me upto this moment.
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  #15  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 12:10
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Art, can you send to me some pics of the machine that you built for your own use. I am specially interested in the way that you got the Vacuum seals mounted on all sides.
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  #16  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 12:30
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Hi Daya. I think you found this thread on another forum
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  #17  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 20:33
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Yes, Gerald but unfortunatly that thread did not last for long. I have done a lot of searching on the Net for a forum or a blog which has info on building a Membrene press but found none. Is this because the machine is too complicated or because hobbyists have no requirement for such a machine.
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  #18  
Old Mon 27 October 2008, 23:06
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
I will post some pic`s just a bit busy we are in the crunch time of the year so trying to make the most of it.
We get our foil from a company that imports it from the east.As you know there are quite a lot of colours.
A block of foil cost about R 12 000.00 about ? what am I going to say the R/$ is going like a jo-jo. ( $ 1000.00) that is about 230 meters.

The machine that I have is the smaller one than the one that you have in your first post.I got this one because I can do curved doors also.

The sliding mechanisim is rollers that is mounted under the table.
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  #19  
Old Tue 28 October 2008, 01:24
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Thanks Hennie, for the info take your own time to send photos. What's the make of your machine. Can you also send to me the link to the manufacturers website. Can you also give me a price indication of the machine.
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  #20  
Old Tue 28 October 2008, 18:09
Art
Just call me: Art #2
 
Lancaster,Texas
United States of America
My press

I used a waterbed matress without baffles and cut off one end. Slid the project in and rolled the end and clamped with spring clamps. Not fancy but did the job. The joe woodworker site listed has a great set of plans, just adjust dimensoins to suite.
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  #21  
Old Tue 28 October 2008, 23:16
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Art, I think what you have used is the Vacuum bag process. Can you tell me the adantages of incorporating Heat into the vacuum process. Can any veneer or thermofoil be applied on to MDF by only using vacuum. Ok, you have mentioned in your earlier posting that if Heat is applied the process could be expedited. My question is will ther be a quality difference between cold pressed process and the hot pressing process.
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  #22  
Old Mon 03 November 2008, 02:19
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Dear Hennie,

Can you please send me the contact details of your machine manufacturer. Some photos of your machine also would be welcome.
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  #23  
Old Mon 03 November 2008, 03:50
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
did send you a pm last week with details.will post some pics tonight of the machine. We are pressing on Wednesday then will post pics of the process
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  #24  
Old Thu 06 November 2008, 09:23
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
Pics Of A Working Press

The pic`s are of doors covered with pvc foil that we made today hope it can help.( I just wish I can learn how to post a pic and do some writing with each one then I can explain more)
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  #25  
Old Thu 06 November 2008, 11:55
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Hennie is that the pump to suck vacuum, ?

whats the peak power consumption on this one - look diy'able though.

what the bed where you place the parts made up of, its porus right.

also can you post a pic of the complete machine?

RGDS
IRfan
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  #26  
Old Thu 06 November 2008, 23:40
Daya
Just call me: Fabrica
 
Kandy
Sri Lanka
Hennie, Thanks for the photos. What is the wattage of each bulb.
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  #27  
Old Fri 07 November 2008, 05:47
Greg J
Just call me: Greg #13
 
Hagerman, New Mexico
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by hennie View Post
I just wish I can learn how to post a pic and do some writing with each one then I can explain more)
Here's the link for posting pic's. It looks like you have that down. For adding text, just type text inbetween the pic links.

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...4&postcount=13

Hope that's what you were looking for.
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  #28  
Old Fri 07 November 2008, 06:52
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
Thanks Greg.will try it.
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  #29  
Old Fri 07 November 2008, 21:32
hennie
Just call me: Hennie #23
 
Roodepoort JHB
South Africa
Irfan answer on questions.

Yes
pulls 65 amps per phase on start up so you need atleast 80 amps feed to your shop.
Board under the doors are there so we don`t cut into the base of the table when we cut the foil once the doors are complete.It is drilled with holes 100 mm appart for suction.
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  #30  
Old Sat 08 November 2008, 04:52
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Thank you Hennie - that clears so much.
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