Cool tables and spindle ordering fun #6 - Brakpan, S.Africa

[danhamm]

I have the english manual "PDF" for it and some suggestions from "ting" can I attach then here..?

[danhamm]

Here is the spindle wiring PDF have the setup manual also..

[danhamm]

The setup" sequence" of the spindle VFD is very important, I dont have it here.. will get it from the shop and post it..They don't come setup..

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thank Dan,

Once I opened up the plug like Gerald suggested I saw that they only have 3 wires from motor to plug. ...the rest was easy.

Wired it up and I had movement ...but slow... Freq. needs adjusting to 400 hz...at moment set to max 350 hz....wow this thing is super silent when running.

Now I have to figure how to program my OMRON 3g3xv ab015 e VFD.
Downloaded the manual, but still figuring what each register does.

Anybody with a Omron VFD that would like to share the register settings ?
Thank's

[Kobus_Joubert]

IT WORKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Register 05 ... the Int.output freq was set for 001.5.... pumped this to 400 and she was singing..... Yipeeeeeeeeeee !!!!!! Also adjusted the Max.Freq and Base Freq to 400.

Stupid question... when I set it 200 Hz I suppose the RPM is roughly 1200 rpm ? Is this correct as I don't yet see how I can read RPM from the VFD....but I will study the manual tonight and work it out.

At 200 hz the AMP display indicated about 2.3 Amps going to 3 Amp when running 400 hz

[Gerald D]

400Hz = 24 000 rpm
200Hz = 12 000 rpm
50Hz = 3 000 rpm

[danhamm]

The amps are the same as mine cold, after it warms up it drops to1.9 amps at 200 hz and 2.4 at 300 hz.

[Kobus_Joubert]

I should have done this spindle thing long long time ago... This morning I made my quick release mount to fit the spindle. After I mounted it I realised that it sits to low....will make another next week.....had some distraction....
Hennie came to visit.

This spindle is super silent and only when the 9.5mm cutter bites into wood it makes a noise...Overall I am happy that I did not go for the watercooled model...did not want to battle with pipes, pumps and water.

This spindle came just in time for my first BIG commercial job....80 x planks each one 2,4m long x 350mm wide. Each with 24 holes.

I did 22 units in about 3 hours... it takes time to remove the board, clean the table, put the next one on and start cutting again..and to carry them from the garage to the back..

By end of the day the spindle was luke warm.

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[digger]

Originally Posted by Kobus_Joubert

clean the table, put the next one on and start cutting again..and to carry them from the garage to the back..

It is time to think about dust collector.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Got one, but this way I can SEE what is happening and with a quick blow from the garden blower the worksurface is clean again. Every so often the floor is vacuumed by the same blower / vacuum unit....this way it LOOKS like a woodworking workshop..

Must admit, I need one now to fit the spindle...for when I cut MDF

[hennie]

Kobus, I have noticed that the yellow cutters do make more noise if that is what you were using.I am green with envy on that spindle thoughKobus you need a bigger workshop.Was a nice short visit.

[KenC]

Kobus, If you are happy with drilling holes, wait till you have a go with large quantity of profile cutting & texturing.
I see that your spindle no load current is fairly high (1.9~2.4A which equate to 456~576W=1/2~3/4hp); My 2.2kW, 230V single phase input water cooled unit, the no load current is never more then 0.2A. I reckon the fan does eat up 1.5~2A。 My water cooled spindle routinely runs at 6~9A (1.4~2kW)under continuous running conditions all day with occasional 9~10A spike. spindle temp is 60C on very hot day of 35C. When V-carving light cuts its usually good at 2~3A max.
I am also contemplating to up-size my spindle, looks like water cooled spindle will suit my purpose better since there are more power available at the cutting edge without giving 1~2A for turning the cooling fan. 1/4~3/4hp meant a lot when running at hair line away from the max. rating of the spindle. Everybody love to have extra head room as long as it is affordable
Thanks to your info, I may decide on 3kW water cooled unit using my exiting 10A rated VFD which will work just fine if I just keep the load current around 10A, its more cost effective then the 4kW air-cooled since I already has an existing water cooling system running.

[Gerald D]

Ken, if you see the fan, you will decide that such a small thing cannot be drawing 1~2 Amp of power. The big difference in Amp readings should be investigated further before concluding it is the fan consumption.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Ken, I got the 1.5 kW vfd for free. I use it to drive my 3 kW spindle. This vfd was used and maybe all the settings were changed by the previous owner.
I see in the manual that one can Calibrate things on it. Maybe this could change things.
Cutting it shows about 3 Amps and just spinning 2.9 Amps.

[KenC]

Gerald, I'll be happy to have an air cooled spindle. Honestly, I will enjoy the simplicity very much. If there is an alternative measurements proving the spindle has lower no-load amp,

After fooling around with dust collector & vacuum hold down, I learnt that moving air is an expensive (energy wise) affair...

Kobus, Simply base on face value of equipment rating, your spindle has not drawn more then 1kW of power just yet, so your 1.5kW VFD is still very happy. it is when your VFD is running over 6.5A over an extensive period of time that will bring some concern; the Spindle will still be happy since it is meant to handle 16A load but that will slave the VFD & bring it closer to making smoke. But then again, since its a free unit, that won't bother much

[Kobus_Joubert]

I think the quality of this Omron VFD could be different to the Chinese supplied VFD's.
I was very worried that I would also have sporadic movement on my MM when I go the spindle route.
I connected the unit on Saturday and the machine has been running non stop without any problems. I did not add filters, special wiring and earthing to my setup.

[danilom]

The high quality Emerson Control Techniques 220V single phase input VFD I use with my 2.2kW water cooled spindle has LOAD percentage display (1-100% of Amp rating it draws). I set my to run at 8Amp max and in idle it says 7% (0.56Amp) and when vcarving MDF with 12mm bit it is 14-16% (1.28Amp). Will check load rating on other jobs.

But the 3Amp reading in idle seems too high to me too. Maybe check some setting in the drive. max voltage maybe?

[Kobus_Joubert]

Manual is here http://www.omron247.com/marcom/pdfcatal.nsf/PDFLookupByUniqueID/1CF437C7EB4B71168525683F006C232B/$File/M28I005E12898.pdf?OpenElement

Would appreciate help as this is my FIRST TIME..

Setting #19 is set for 3.5 ???? is this the problem ?

[danilom]

As in manual says that rated output current is 6.5Amps you should enter that or slightly smaller value in parameter #19, also check parameter #3 Maximum Voltage, default is 200V but check the plate of motor to see what is his rated voltage. There are other 2 parameters that say Intermediate but I cant tell what are those for.

[Kobus_Joubert]

I have #3 as 240 volt. Did change #19 to 2.5 and after the 5th hole the VFD tripped on Over Load. Luckely I was there to stop it in time before it damaged workpiece.
Quickly back to 3.5

Lesson # 515.5...Don't stuff around with new setups or settings when doing important work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kobus_Joubert]

What a BORING job...but what the heck it paid for the spindle....

Some body pain tonight getting all that wood to the back and then back to the front.

[KenC]

Kobus, setting 3.5A(840W) is only about half the VFD rating means you made your VFD & spindle true capacity redundant, the VFD will surely be super happy with it but you are wasting too much of your equipment capacity...

If I were in your situation, I will set #19 to 6A. or even 6.5A since you believe the Omron is more reliable then the economical Chinese VFD which I am using.

IMHO, the 4kW spindle is a big over spend if you only run it at 6.5A (rated 16A so safety factor is 2.5), a 3kW is already too much safety factor (safety factor of at least 2). I personally belief a safety factor of 1.5 will cover most reliability problems due to under-rated equipments.
Another factor to consider is how constant the spindle speed can stay, do you hear the spindle slowing down when you feed the drill bit harder & the current keep climbing?

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thank's Ken, I will play with those settings on some scrap wood sometime. I did not want to stuff the job up this weekend.
I was only cutting 2.8mm deep per pass with a 9.5mm bit and the amp's went up 0.1 during cutting...also I was running at 12000 rpm
Will change #19 to 6Amp and try to cut VERY DEEP.

[danhamm]

I am using the Huanyang VFD, apparently one vfd is used for all the watercooled and aircooled spindles.
After reading on this forum others amp readings, I hung a amprobe on the infeed 230 volt line, it disagrees with the vfd amp readings, after warmup it reads .9 to 1.3 amps
unloaded, 3.2 to 4 amps cutting .5 inches at 4 in per second in pine wood with a 3/8 helical upcut bit.
The vfd is set at max( 9 ) amps recommended is...... 11.0 amps for a 3kw spindle..
I trust the amprobe readings...

I agree with Ken, I would set the amps as high as the VFD will allow..( 6.5) for that VFD
the protection in the vfd probably cuts out at that amperage..??

[Gerald D]

I think the VFD amp display is for the 3-phase output lines . . . . it is not a display of the single phase input.

[Gerald D]

Also, I believe the scale of the display can be user configured in some cases.

[danhamm]

Then it should be lower, not higher...380 volts 3 phase 230 volts single...watts are watts..

[bradm]

Dan, how are you getting 380 Volts? I wouldn't expect the VFD to boost the voltage.

It sounds to me like you are looking at instantaneous peak output measurements on the VFD, but averaged draw on the input. That makes sense, as the input is feeding a capacitor bank, and the output is drawing on that bank according to loading of the spindle/bit.

[danhamm]

I really havent tried to check the output voltage, because its first converted to dc through a full wave bridge, The DC intermediate power is then converted to quasi-sinusoidal AC power using an inverter switching circuit.
The usual method used to achieve variable motor voltage is pulse-width modulation (PWM). With PWM voltage control, the inverter switches are used to construct a quasi-sinusoidal output waveform by a series of narrow voltage pulses with pseudosinusoidal varying pulse durations, some where in their manual I saw a output diagram for the 110,230 volt ac, that had the pwm voltage at 380.
It really isnt relative because if the input is (X) amps, the output will be less than this due to residual losses, just more efficient and controlled.
I had to disasemble the vfd, it was doing wierd things when first set up. I found it had bad solder joints on the board where there was tiny black arc marks.
My original point was, I dont trust the output measuremeants of the vfd, for amperage,
simply because it cant be greater than the input of the ac line.

[Kobus_Joubert]

When I made my machine nearly 3 years ago as a HOBBY machine I started with an old 500 watt Makita router I had. At that time I learned to go slow and cut light cuts at moderate speeds.

Then I upgraded to a 1.1 kW router. Immediatly I noticed that I can cut a bit deeper and quicker per pass.

Now I run a 3kW spindle and after talking to Gerald's son this morning I came home tonight and tested my NEW BEAST.

I clamped a heafty piece of pine on the table. Left the 9.5mm straight cutter that I used the weekend in the collet and did some 50x 100mm rectangle cuts to a depth of 22mm. I monitored the amps on the VFD.

Results:
cutting 2.8mm per pass the amps went from idle running 2.8A to 2.9A cutting
cutting 7mm per pass the amps went from idle running 2.8A to 3.3A cutting
cutting 10mm per pass the amps went from idle running 2.8A to 3.6A cutting.

I did not even hear the spindle slow down...it just dig in and let the chips fly....must say it was not a cheap yello cutter....something the customer brought to me for the cutting.

Wow I AM IMPRESSED... I could have finished this weekend job in 1/3 of the time if I used the machine as it was designed.

No more Mr nice guy farting around with 2.8mm cuts per pass.