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  #1  
Old Thu 01 October 2009, 14:45
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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A fourth axis attachment concept

Greetings to all,

This is an experimental design I am working on for a 4th axis using the available materials in the shop. It will be attached under the table beams and could be used both as vertical and horizontal rotating axis positions just by 90 degrees indexing the main assembly on the table beams.
This 4th axis on my machine is designed for approx. 1000 mm length x 500 mm diameter in horizontal axis position and 250 mm height x 500 mm diameter in vertical axis position.
It should fit on MechMate with only minor changes made to the last two of the table beams, and to the control panel of course.

Some specs:
The motor is PK296A2A-SG36.

A simple L297 MOSFET driven home made unipolar driver board will be used. Although it is only a half step driver, it proved reliable in several applications up to 40V and 4A supply. Theoretically these two combined should yield a resolution of 1.5 minutes disregarding backlash and everything.
This driver has no idle current reduction which due to its reduction of the stepper motor torque and eventual motor slipping is not a useful feature in the 4th axis anyway.
The downside of this driver is that it rotates the motor maximum at around 250 rpm, which when calculating the 1:36 reducer, will be about 7 rpm max. Horribly low I suppose.

A 4” chuck will be used which along with its inverted gripping jaws will serve many applications and seems adequate. The chuck’s neck bearing is a simple UCF205 which has enough lateral load tolerence.

A simple design for a tailstock is also improvised which consists of a M16 threaded rod, fitted in two 6001 bearings and a simple livecenter. The total displacement is 140 mm which I am not sure if it wobbles or not when fully extended.
The gripping blades on the livecenter are spring steel from a 3 mm scrap leaf spring. Quite hard and robust material it is. The piercing end is ground manually on a wheel grinder.

Attached are the concept and the pictures of the progress will follow in a short while.

Nader
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4th a.jpg (88.1 KB, 3193 views)
File Type: jpg 4th b.jpg (83.8 KB, 3171 views)
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  #2  
Old Sat 03 October 2009, 16:19
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
Send a message via Yahoo to Atifeh
Some progress pt.1

Hello all,

This is the progress made in the last two days.
I wonder how to attach pictures in between the lines of the post. Therefore I had to split it into several posts. The (picture) refers to the logical order of the attached files.

These are the main purchased components:
(picture)

For ease of attaching/detaching the 4th axis assembly it is better for the first two rails to the front of the machine, i.e. farthest from home, to be arranged face to face, therefore they will be like left and right hands and care should be taken in locating the holes:
(picture)

12mm diameter holes to be drilled along them:
(picture)

Two pair of holes to accommodate the motor assembly in its horizontal axis position, 60mm apart:
(picture)

A set of holes to accommodate the motor assembly in its vertical axis position and also the live center assembly for different lengths of workpieces. This distance and the number of holes are up to your choice. Mine were 140mm apart:
(picture)

Nader
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PS101.jpg (51.3 KB, 3108 views)
File Type: jpg PS102.jpg (73.3 KB, 3100 views)
File Type: jpg PS103.jpg (96.4 KB, 3106 views)
File Type: jpg PS104.jpg (91.7 KB, 3079 views)
File Type: jpg PS105.jpg (77.0 KB, 3065 views)
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  #3  
Old Sat 03 October 2009, 16:25
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Some progress pt.2

A piece of 120x12mm angle iron, 150mm length is squared on a sanding disk to an acceptable condition.
(picture)
(picture)

This part will accommodate the bearing and the motor housing. One wing cut to 90mm to sit on the base support which is a 90x50x4mm square tube. Since this angle iron is thick enough, it will be drilled and tapped so that no nuts will be used. The spaces are rather tight:
(picture)

Next part is the motor housing. It is made from a piece of 100x50x3mm square tube. One face will carry the motor and drilled and bored accordingly, the other face for the UCF205 bearing housing to be mount. Please note that the motor face is configured to accept Oriental Motor gear motors, in my case PK296A2A-sg36. Cut 45 degrees on ends to provide access for the bolts and screws:
(picture)

The assembled parts:
(picture)
(picture)

Please don’t mind the shorter or longer than necessary screws and not using washers. This is only a temporary assembly.

Nader
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PS106.jpg (86.1 KB, 3062 views)
File Type: jpg PS107.jpg (85.4 KB, 3040 views)
File Type: jpg PS108.jpg (71.5 KB, 3037 views)
File Type: jpg PS109.jpg (40.4 KB, 3016 views)
File Type: jpg PS110.jpg (52.6 KB, 3020 views)
File Type: jpg PS111.jpg (40.3 KB, 3010 views)
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  #4  
Old Sat 03 October 2009, 16:33
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Some progress pt.3

Parts for the motor assembly support:
(picture)

Motor assembly support welded:
(picture)
(picture)
(picture)

Parts for live center base:
(picture)

Live center base welded and drilled.
(picture)

Nader
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PS112.jpg (71.2 KB, 3004 views)
File Type: jpg PS113.jpg (72.8 KB, 3001 views)
File Type: jpg PS114.jpg (73.5 KB, 2990 views)
File Type: jpg PS115.jpg (73.1 KB, 2983 views)
File Type: jpg PS116.jpg (71.5 KB, 2984 views)
File Type: jpg PS117.jpg (76.6 KB, 2974 views)
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  #5  
Old Sat 03 October 2009, 16:40
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Some progress pt.4

Parts for the live center. The square tube is 25x25x2.5mm and 150mm length. Nuts and screw rod are M16:
(picture)

This part was very annoying to make and I am not satisfied with it yet.
The first nut was welded with care and the rod screw was quite parallel to the length of the tube. The problem arises when I weld the second nut. The tack weld tend to shrink and off center the second nut so that the rod screw will get jammed and won’t move a bit. Maybe somebody could help.

The live center casing:
(picture)

Preliminary setups:

Horizontal position of the 4th axis and the live center:
(picture)

Vertical position of the 4th axis:
(picture)

An approximation of height relative to the table board surface. The spindle fitted with a tool bit will be clear off the chuck and therefore not running into it:
(picture)

Works to be done:
Flanged shaft from motor to the chuck.
Live center inself and assembly into the bearings and the M16 rod screw.
Aligning and welding the fox shaped live assembly.
Mounting the locking screw and the end handwheel.
Mounting the motor.
Checking plays and centering procedures.

Nader
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PS118.jpg (52.2 KB, 2980 views)
File Type: jpg PS119.jpg (88.2 KB, 2978 views)
File Type: jpg 1s.jpg (87.8 KB, 2953 views)
File Type: jpg 1t.jpg (92.3 KB, 2964 views)
File Type: jpg 1u.jpg (67.2 KB, 2950 views)
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  #6  
Old Sat 03 October 2009, 18:16
jhiggins7
Just call me: John #26
 
Hebron, Ohio
United States of America
Nader,

That's a VERY interesting indexer. Thanks for sharing the design and progress pictures.

Now, we are anxiously awaiting completion so we can see it in action.
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  #7  
Old Sat 03 October 2009, 23:08
Leko
Just call me: Leko
 
Kaukapakapa
New Zealand
Did you have the threaded rod through both nuts when you welded the second nut?

You might want to grind it off & try that. Or drill out the second nut so it is just supporting the threaded rod, not engaging it. I don't think you really need those threads.

I see in your 3d model that you are planning a second "lock" nut between the support and the hand-wheel. I think it would work better in front of the first nut, between the support and the live center.

Everything looks good, and you have an amazingly clean shop!

Last edited by Leko; Sat 03 October 2009 at 23:11..
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  #8  
Old Sat 03 October 2009, 23:27
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
To "insert" the pictures in the right place in the text, see this post and the few just before it.
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  #9  
Old Sun 04 October 2009, 15:34
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Thanks for the help Leko, that's the way it should be. My mistake was that I was actually making a non-backlash screw, backed with a locking nut.

Thanks John. I am redesigning the live center part. I noticed a slight buckling in the 16mm rod screw and am pretty sure it would wobble while at work. maybe I should choose 20 or 25 mm screw to add more rigidity to it. I will reconfigure and remake this part and will post the progress.

Thanks Gerald for all your efforts and care.

Nader

Last edited by Atifeh; Sun 04 October 2009 at 15:38..
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  #10  
Old Sun 04 October 2009, 17:09
jhiggins7
Just call me: John #26
 
Hebron, Ohio
United States of America
Nader,

I was wondering about a larger ( 20 or 25 mm ) screw.

Alternatively, you could make the live center support mechanism movable, so you would not have to extend the screw very far from the support...kind of like in a lathe. I realise that this would mean developing some sort of slide for the support mechanism. Or you could have multiple mounting holes. Then you could select a set of mounting holes based on the length of the workpiece being setup.

We anxiously await your progress...good luck.
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  #11  
Old Tue 06 October 2009, 13:41
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Tailstock redesign

John,

I worked on your idea for multiple holes and also a sliding mechanism. It is achievable but I have to broaden the base to more than 170mm. I encountered two problems which we could work it out.
1- the maximum length of the workpiece will be reduced; please bear in mind that for the longest workpiece and with the tailstock fully retracted there is the danger of the X Echain path being cut through.
2- the assembly will be heavier and harder to attach/detach, say when you want to use the assembly in vertical axis position.

There is also this possibility to use the lower wings of the U80 channel as a bed for the slide. I am working on the design and will post it soon.

For the time being I have changed the design so that now:
It is M24 rod screw. The M24 nuts will house well in a 40x40 mm square tube.
The locking nut put at the livecenter side as Leko suggested.
The end nut will be drilled 24 so that it acts only as a sleeve, again as Leko suggested.
The assembly will be bolted with flanged screw on a rolled steel strip which is welded on the base and will be tapped. This arrangement provides some lateral movement as well as the possibility to shim the assembly in order to get minor alignment possibility with the chuck.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg livecenter24.jpg (37.5 KB, 2846 views)
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  #12  
Old Tue 06 October 2009, 18:22
jhiggins7
Just call me: John #26
 
Hebron, Ohio
United States of America
Nader,

Looks like you have the problem well in hand. I hope it works for you. Please continue to keep us informed about how your testing goes.

On another note, I and some others would like to invite you to show us your MechMate. You've given us just a glimpse, so maybe you would consider showing the whole machine. I also realize that you are reluctant to do this since you've had to make some changes to the design and are concerned that it might detract from the Forum to show us your "hybrid" design. From the little I've seen, I think your MachMate could qualify for a Serial Number. Please give this some thought. I hope you decide to show your MechMate. I further hope you decide to apply the MechMate Logos and seek a Serial Number.

Just my opinion. Whether you decide to show your MechMate or not, please continue to contribute to the Forum. From what I've seen, your contributions are well thought-out and articulate. Keep it up.
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  #13  
Old Wed 07 October 2009, 09:53
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Asalamalikum Nader - I would really back John on you showing your machine - having seen a glimpse means that I can say that is is really close to the spirit of the Mechmate!

and Kudos to the 4th axis design

I wonder how and where you would place a proximity switch on the 4th axis, well is there actually a real home???

RGDS
IRfan
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  #14  
Old Wed 07 October 2009, 15:03
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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The sliding version of the tailstock

Just an update. This is the latest version which seems more versatile to me. It has free moving along the width of the table and the live center displacement is only 42mm. A piece of a U channel wing will be cut to act as matching clutch. The previous holes on the U80 channels are not needed
anymore except for the ones that carry the main assembly in both vertical and horizontal axis positions which will be left to the builder. Of course still the table U channels should be arranged face to face. I just wonder if two M10 screws could harness the tailstock from backing off.

Today I bought the 24mm rod screw and nuts and will continue to complete it. It might take a week or so since I am busy painting the machine.

John and Irfan. Thanks. I will arrange the logs on the machine from the beginning and start a new thread soon. Actually there are two machines and unfortunately neither are blue!

Irfan, please refer to the second picture from the top. The dark green part is a roller type microswitch. It is quite sensitive with PT=0.4mm and MD=0.05mm (which I don't know what these abbreviations stand for) but I can see when activated, it returns in very minute distance. It is also present in the third picture from the top. It is locally made under Italian license and is equivalent to $1.5.

While still too early, I was wondering if I could define two sets of profile in MACH. One with a rotary axis with a homing switch and one without a homing switch. I thought the second set might mimic a wood turning lathe. Is it logical?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg livecenter24 slide.jpg (34.6 KB, 2809 views)
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  #15  
Old Wed 07 October 2009, 22:55
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atifeh View Post
. . . . I was wondering if I could define two sets of profile in MACH. One with a rotary axis with a homing switch and one without a homing switch. I thought the second set might mimic a wood turning lathe. Is it logical?. . . . .
You can create as many profiles as you want - just rename the .xml file for each one.
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  #16  
Old Thu 08 October 2009, 05:49
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atifeh View Post
J
Irfan, please refer to the second picture from the top. The dark green part is a roller type microswitch. It is quite sensitive with PT=0.4mm and MD=0.05mm (which I don't know what these abbreviations stand for) but I can see when activated, it returns in very minute distance. It is also present in the third picture from the top. It is locally made under Italian license and is equivalent to $1.5.
Hmm I have seen that switch in the local electrical stores - need to enquire more on this.
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  #17  
Old Thu 08 October 2009, 06:33
jhiggins7
Just call me: John #26
 
Hebron, Ohio
United States of America
Nader,

I like your new 4th axis design very much.

However, I thought of another problem you may face. Since the U channels are unlikely to be exactly parallel in both dimensions (X and Z), you may need to be able to adjust the support mechanism to re-align the centers of the two ends of the 4th axis as you slide the support mechanism back and forth. In a lathe this is handled by having ways that are machined to be exactly parallel and flat. You may be lucky and it won't be a problem. It will require testing.

I'm anxious to see the logs of your MechMates. As for colour, to earn a Serial Number a MechMate must be painted (MechMate blue is preferred but not required), it must be cutting and it must have MechMate Logo's applied. Of course, the decision to award a Serial Number is made by Gerald.
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  #18  
Old Thu 08 October 2009, 13:15
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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John,

That is so true. I will work on possible ways.

My original thought was that you have to:

1- With no workpiece loaded lower the tip of the tool to the center of the chuck.
2- Determine the approximate location of the tailstock and set it there.
3- Jog in the Y direction to the tip of the live center.
4- Find out how much corrections are needed for Y and Z.
5- Adjust the tip of the live center to and forth from its base to correct the Y deviation.
6- Shim the bed for Z correction.
7- Mount the workpiece.

Of course this is a crude procedure and will only apply to a one on one part basis. Maybe a targetting laser from a cheap key ring could speed up the process. Anyway, I have to come with something better.
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  #19  
Old Thu 08 October 2009, 14:50
jhiggins7
Just call me: John #26
 
Hebron, Ohio
United States of America
I like your alignment procedure...I hadn't thought of it. I had thought of how to know where the end points of your 4th axis are...your procedure would solve that.

Perhaps you could add some adjusting screws with lock nuts to make fine adjustments to your Y and Z positions and then lock them in.

I don't know much about how to use them, but there are Add-Ins for Mach3 that will allow Mach3 to find the center of a cross hair and to zero the Z axis. You use metal touch plates so that when the tool touches the metal surface, a circuit is completed and Mach3 knows that a target has been reached. If you are interested, see Wayne #25's build thread here for an example and pointers to the construction details.
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  #20  
Old Fri 09 October 2009, 16:19
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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John,

Thanks. I am preparing the machine thread which I suspect will be ready in a couple of days.

I came up with some ideas regarding your comment on adjusting screws which I will work on them and send the post.
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  #21  
Old Sat 10 October 2009, 09:05
liaoh75
Just call me: David
 
Taibao
Taiwan
Cool design Atifeh, I can't wait to see how the design works out.
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  #22  
Old Sun 25 October 2009, 14:10
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Some more progress

A colleague’s lathe was down due to its faulty chuck jaws. I fixed his problem and he let me use his lathmachine the required parts for the 4th axis. Here are the pictures:

Parts required for the tailstock:

tailstock01.jpg

As seen, the M24 nuts sit pretty good inside a 40x40 square tube. Only a minor sanding was necessary to fit it completely inside the tube.

tailstock02.jpg

Here is the semi assembled tailstock. There were not adequate tools to machine inside the live center head piece, so I had to change the design.
tailstock03.jpg

The motor shaft was machined to fit tightly on a 100mm diameter steel plate. Welded and machined.
tailstock04.jpg
tailstock05.jpg

The motor side sub assembly:

tailstock06.jpg
tailstock07.jpg
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  #23  
Old Sun 25 October 2009, 14:12
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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An unfortunate incident

After installing the chuck assembly on the motor, I noticed a considerable amount of play on the shaft of the Oriental Motor PK296A2A-sg36. I think it is about 2-3 degrees. I tied together all the motor wires to confine its movement but the play still existed , which led me to the fact that this must be in the gearbox section. First I thought I could compensate the backlash in Mach, but then it occurred to me that during back and forth movements of the spindle, the workpiece will freely move accordingly and this will totally scrap my selection of this type of motor. I thought there might be some adjustment inside the gearbox so that I can tamper with to eliminate the backlash even with the expense of shortening its life or sustaining more friction between the gears, but I don’t know which part to dismantle. Please help me solve this problem.
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  #24  
Old Mon 26 October 2009, 03:39
Greolt
Just call me: Greg
 
Victoria
Australia
My suggestion is to go to a belt reduction.

I would aim for 10 to 1 ratio. This would necessitate a two stage reduction. Unless you can source or make a large (120 to 150 tooth) pulley.

Any backlash in those stepper gearboxes is not so significant when driving a 30mm pinion. However when driving a 300mm diameter project that same amount of backlash becomes very significant.

Greg
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  #25  
Old Mon 26 October 2009, 12:43
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Greg,

You are right. My original intention was to make a two stage 1:9 timing belt reducer (I only have 24

and 72 teeth timing pulleys available). the problem is that a 1:9 reduction will only provide 12 minutes

(0.2 degrees) of positioning accuracy. On a 800 mm diameter work this will resolve to 1.4 mm which is not good for example if you want to make a PU or fibreglass mould. I read somewhere that the preferred ration of reduction is between 15 and 30. In addition these reducers will be massive and heavy. The Oriental Motor stepper gearboxes are very slick and will not take too much space if implemented in the MechMate, and that was my main objective in selecting them.

My assumption was that the stepper gearboxes with high reduction ratios will have reduced backlash

which turned to be wrong. I wonder if this amount of backlash is normal in them?

Is there any solution to correct these geaarboxes?
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  #26  
Old Mon 26 October 2009, 12:48
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
The ratio for rotary work should be about the inches. Eg. 30 inch diameter needs about 30:1 ratio. A very rough guide.
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  #27  
Old Mon 26 October 2009, 15:27
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Gerald, Thanks for your useful note.
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  #28  
Old Mon 26 October 2009, 15:33
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Tailstock assembly

The below picture shows the sliding mechanism simulation which was devised. It will have a clutch locking mechanism. The longer piece will act as the table beams, underneath which is the sliding cross beam which supports the tailstock. A piece of 30x100x10 mm hot rolled strip shall be welded on the square tube which will be tapped M12. The upper parts are a piece of a U80 channel wing, inverted to compensate the draft and welded to one of the most widely used steel, i.e. the remainder of the rail cut. This part will be bored 13mm diameter. The square tube will be drilled 14 mm diameter, just beneath these holes to accommodate the length of the locking screw.
tailstocksupport01.jpg
tailstocksupport02.jpg

This is the tailstock body welded and complete.
tailstock08.jpg

In order to dermine the welding height of the 50x50 angle iron to the tube assembly the following method was used:
tailstock09.jpg

The angle iron has one elongated hole which will be used for yaw adjustment of the tip of the livecenter with the end of the workpiece. Besides, the cross beam has about 4 mm room to play sideways. You can see the elongated hole on the angle iron, in front of a M12 tapped 50x100x10 mm hot rolled strip.
tailstock10.jpg

Shims will be used for the pitch adjustment. So far I could not figure out a simple way for this adjustment.

These are the parts which make up the sliding tailstock cross beam. Please ignore the holes on the welded tabs on the square tube, as these were done during the first version design.
tailstockslide01.jpg
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  #29  
Old Mon 26 October 2009, 17:11
Greolt
Just call me: Greg
 
Victoria
Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atifeh View Post
On a 800 mm diameter work this will resolve to 1.4 mm which is not good
I get about one minute per microstep, but you are right, 10 to 1 is not enough for 800mm dia work.

I assumed, incorrectly, that given the size of your chuck and bearing support that this 4th axis was for smaller work.

Greg
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  #30  
Old Tue 27 October 2009, 15:41
Atifeh
Just call me: Nader
 
Tehran
Iran
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Today I went after some gearboxes to fit to a stepper motor.

So far I found out that worm gears are not suitable at all. I recall that some 20 years ago they made these gearboxes with vertical adjustment that forced the worm on the worm gear. Now they have only horizontal adjustment.

Found a planetary gearbox with 15-20 minutes backlash.

Greg,

Assuming that microsteps are not positioning steps, and that you probably set your drivers to 1/10 microstep, therefore I assume that you should get about 10 minutes backlash. What was the biggest diameter that you machined without any problem?

Do you see this gearbox suitable for this purpose?
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