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  #31  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 10:51
John_H
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Greg,
.020 is very good depth. I use enco a lot.

I was thinking more along the lines of the bearings
for the Kasenit...At least something would be
hardened. I do get your point though...distortion.

John
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  #32  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 10:56
Gerald_D
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Okay guys, this is the RAIL thread. Case-hardening is not suitable for the rails. In fact, let's not create a perception that the rails need hardening.
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  #33  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 11:07
Greg Waggy
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Sorry Gerald. I guess we were just trying to figure out a way (reason) to harden rails. The place you sent me are WAY out of line for pricing. I agree, if you have good bearings and the wheels on those bearings are smooth, you shouldn't need to harden the rails.
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  #34  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 11:13
Gerald_D
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Forget about Kasenit hardening of the wheels as well - they won't be round after that process because it is a relatively thin ring. The pinion gears are a different story - they are "chunky" and have no noticeable distortion.

Back to cutting a V-cap on those rails now......
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  #35  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 11:14
John_H
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Here's a crude sketch of supporting rails as they're being ground, using homemade rollers from short
section of pipe.



John
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  #36  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 11:39
Gerald_D
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My milling machine guy did the following things:

1. Used a single 45 degree bevel cutter with flat bottom:
no tool changes, no need to calibrate various tools

2. Screwed a solid back fence to the milling machine table. 150 x 15mm flat bar. Skimmed a reference face on the front face of this flat bar, parallel to the long axis.

3. Rigged up trestles on both sides of the milling machine to carry the weight of rail that wasn't supported by the table.

4. Rigged clamps to hold the rail down to the bed, rigged wedges to push the rail against the parallel back fence

5. Cut the three faces.

He did say that in future he would think of having some loaded rollers (or greased guide plates) so that he could simply push the rail through while the cutter position stayed fixed. The actual cut is very light.

(I wouldn't give the milling guy a set of pre-drilled holes because they are too small and far apart for milling forces. Let him take full responsibility for his clamping)
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  #37  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 11:43
Gerald_D
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Didn't see the last few posts while I was typing...

Check the diameter of a grinding wheel needed for 45 degrees on the inside of the angle iron...(112.6mm max)

Sure, a grinding system can be constructed, but it is not as simple as the gauge-plate/table-saw arrangement. The milling machine method does work as well.
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  #38  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 11:48
John_H
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Fortunately I have a mill, and that's how I'd do
it. My idea's with the grinder are mainly for
the guy who doesn't.

Just trying to add some options for those guy's
to look at

John
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  #39  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 11:52
Greg Waggy
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Gerald, Now that cutter would work very nicely. ENCO has them ranging in price from $22.00 USD to $35.00 USD. That's not a bad price range. Just double cut each side of the rail and you are done.
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  #40  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 12:01
Gerald_D
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Here is another exotic option: Plate beveller. Almost like running a woodwork router along an edge.......
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  #41  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 12:07
Greg Waggy
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It's produced by http://www.heckind.net/products.htm I guess you have to write for prices but their 3000 model would work for what we are doing.
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  #42  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 12:08
Greg Waggy
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Maby this one would be better.

http://www.heckind.net/benchbeveler/benchbeveler.html
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  #43  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 12:11
Gerald_D
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Some more - notice the modified angle-grinder concept.....
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  #44  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 12:16
Greg Waggy
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Here's another toy we could make using these ideas. An inverted router on a table with the right bits and fence would allow you to do the same thing.... When that CNC Mill isn't being used you could use the 3 1/2 HP router to make other things.
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  #45  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 12:22
Gerald_D
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A 3 1/2 HP router doesn't like putting out power at less than 15 000 rpm, what cutter will cut steel at that speed? Drill press speeds are more suitable........
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  #46  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 12:43
Gerald_D
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Inverted router on table.....drillpress....
Those ideas could link back to a milling machine, but sliding the rails through guides while the table stays static. See again what my guy said in my post of 8.39pm: "...in future he would think of having some loaded rollers (or greased guide plates) so that he could simply push the rail through while the cutter position stayed fixed. The actual cut is very light."

If anyone does build a handfed device, you must feed against the cutter rotation to prevent the the cutter from grabbing the rail and breaking things.
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  #47  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 13:01
John_H
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Gerald,

"If anyone does build a handfed device, you must feed against the cutter rotation to prevent the the cutter from grabbing the rail and breaking things."

Excellent advice!

John
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  #48  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 19:44
Greg Waggy
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John,

I give it a try. Here's the picture I wanted to include when I got the error message.



http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INLMK3

$34.25 Page 80 of their catalog
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  #49  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 20:14
John_H
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Greg,
I've seen the drill conversion. I think(simply an
opinion) that by the time you rework the head,
because the stock quill isn't going to handle
the lateral forces, you'd have to much $$ tied
up in it.

An idea is to use the head from a standard
mini-mill which one could get wordwide or here
in the U.S. as a repair item from littlemachineshop.com. As a single-purpose
tool/machine it could be bolted to something
extremely ridgid.

John
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  #50  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 21:17
John_H
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The more I think about...and I do, By weighing
costs, availability of tools, how much of it one
person would actually need, it looks like Gerald's
table saw idea is probably the shortest of shortcuts.

For light production, light $$ has to be spent. I'd look at the grinding rig.

John
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  #51  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 21:21
Greg Waggy
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I wonder how much the blade for the saw will cost? Also, you might be better off to cut/grind on the back side of the saw so that the blade is coming up rather than grinding down.
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  #52  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 21:27
John_H
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I just bought 2 from Harbor Freight on sale
for $3.99 ea. Mine are 14" "Abrasive Cut-off Wheels",
14" is to big for a table saw, but that tells you
they ain't expensive or hard to come by.

Look at the way Gerald did it. He's "been there-done that"

John
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  #53  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 21:51
Gerald_D
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Good Morning, I see you are still at it! The times on the posts are my local time.

Take a break from the V-cap for a while and think how to remove about 12mm [1/2"] or more of surplus width from that angle iron. (Without distorting it too much - shearing and flame-cutting are out of the question)

By the way, a 110mm [4.5"] diam grind wheel will make a hollow face on a V-cap by only 0.03mm[0.001"] which should be okay for a roller.
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  #54  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 21:59
Greg Waggy
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How about a metal bandsaw with a rip-fence set up? As for the "V" cap, just one more comment and then I'll let it rest. Why couldn't you use a good bench grinder to cut the faces?
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  #55  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 22:02
Gerald_D
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  #56  
Old Mon 13 November 2006, 22:29
Gerald_D
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This is the fit if a 102mm [4"] diam. grindstone is used. The gap (if you can see it on your screen) is only 0.030 mm [0.0012"]



The gap is actually a lot smaller than what I was thinking before. Now that I've drawn it accurately, I reckon this type of rail will be 100%
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  #57  
Old Wed 06 December 2006, 12:10
Gerald_D
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Here is Gert cutting rails on a bandsaw and then on a milling machine:




The sawing is between scribed lines (no fence) down to 26mm.







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  #58  
Old Wed 06 December 2006, 12:28
Travish
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Hello Gerald,

I must commend you on all your efforts! Well done Mate. I am new here to your forum, and I am enjoying watching the few that are actually getting down to business. Great job on keeping your forum clean and organized. The site is easy to use and get around. I have been a Machinist for about 15 years now. This is an awesome project that my wife and I are considering building. Ok enough allready...

This guy doing the rails on a milling machine here, I'm curious how he is doing the X axis rails? Since they are so long, he must be unclamping them, then sliding them down, and reclamping, followed by a bit of hand blend work. Interesting to see how people get by with what they have available to them. Looks like he has a good set up there.

Cheers.
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  #59  
Old Wed 06 December 2006, 12:39
Gerald_D
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Welcome Travish! Yes, those rails are unclamped, slid along and re-clamped. Havn't seen signs of hand blend work, but you machinists are good at this, aren't you?
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  #60  
Old Wed 06 December 2006, 12:52
Travis H
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Yes, your right it is all about technique. There is more than one way to make a cut in this trade. Cool to see the different ways to do the rails. I too am thinking about how I would do the rails. If I decide to build, I'm going to go with a 4x8' machine. I have access to a mill that has 8ft of travel, even at that, I will still have to re-clamp. Shouldn't be a problem though. just would be nice to do it in all in one go. It will be interesting to see what Fabrica comes up with.
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