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  #511  
Old Fri 06 December 2013, 23:16
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
Thats a lot of screws to go through to open up the bucket.
Mine is only a pull away.
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  #512  
Old Sat 07 December 2013, 03:37
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Ken, I have seen that picture from your thread before. I almost went that route.

I most likely could have went with half that amount I used but being wood and with humidity changing I foresaw a leak. Still less than 30 seconds to loosen all of them. Now if all things are equal and the vacuum is constant, no screws would be required because the pulling action of the vacuum would seal the vessel. With one hose over the side creating side pull, I was leery. Granted this is not a pump or a roots blower where we are pulling well into the 20 to 30 in-Hg range where you would create a lot of heat from a small leak at a leak site. I would have liked an edge seal on the container with a recess in the wood to make the seal. But I need a different container with an even thickness edge for that to work. A 55 gallon steel drum would work but I would like my back to work in 30 years also. The other option was to laminate 3 piece of thinner pieces of material together and have the o-ring in the side and the lid seal on the side of the top cover. Again humidity changes wood as we know so it may seal good today and be stuck tomorrow or the opposite be loose tomorrow.

In the process of this test, I was able to find a leak at the dust collector 6" to 4" Y reducer. It is an interference press on style connector. I was able to identify it by ear when I was in just the right position to hear a slight hiss. Something not so easy with the noise of the unit.

I would much rather be sucking in all the bad air and leaving the good air alone. Even a small leak will reduce capacity, that is why I went this route. I would have liked to have borrowed the air velocity meter from work that we use when setting up our dust collection at our machines. Unfortunately, the EHS manager that has it is on vacation and it is locked in his office. This would have given base line numbers to work off of to compare the losses created. I hope to borrow it next week. Then I can see just how much reduction did occur with the inline style versus without and how much I regained by shortening the run. That is why the after blower is so much more appealing to some.
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  #513  
Old Sat 07 December 2013, 08:53
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
I enjoy making things as frugal & simple as possible. I find it more challenging than the other way round.
All in the good spirit of healthy discussion, improvement, unbiased comparison of various methods.
Theoretically, wood does have problem with moisture, making the cover from plastic is one of the alternatives but when plywood is always more convenient. I dealt the said moisture issue with lavish coats of lacquer, that should seal the plywood, It doesn't look like the seal will be broken in a decade or so.
I put some thick foam tape at the mating face as seal, stepped too. Tested no leak. still good after all these years. they are meant for such application after all.

Smaller barrels should work well too, just need to empty the bucket more frequently.
A barrel trolley should be good friend to our aging back
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  #514  
Old Sat 07 December 2013, 09:38
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Good points all of them. I am used to maintaining vacuum levels in the single and double micron range in chambers and super high velocities for lung protection from heavy metal dust on machines, so I tend to over-engineer. I have seen many methods that achieve good results. I wasn't knocking yours. I was aiming for a near perfect seal (at least as close with wood surface prepping) and then a little leak later is not so bad. One thing about the Thien baffle, not any one is exactly the same. That is how we all, in the end, perfect the end design. By drawing a group consensus and pulling the best from all and make one.

I am interested to see what the velocity drop is with using the interceptor. I will post the numbers if anyone is interested.

Good chatting with you again Ken. You are always offer good advice from experience.
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  #515  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 08:46
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
So every year Vectric® does their Christmas calendar and every year I miss the first couple pieces as they can only be downloaded on the day that matches the number on the calendar. They are pretty cool at doing stuff like that. Just wished my memory was better.
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  #516  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 09:02
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
VectorArt3D is giving away 10 models for celebrating their 2000th design to registered users. You can find information about it in the Newsletter section of the Vectric Forum
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  #517  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 13:54
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by pblackburn View Post
So every year Vectric® does their Christmas calendar and every year I miss the first couple pieces......

Pete, if you need any of the first 9 let me know, I have all of them so far
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  #518  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 15:31
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
If you don't mind, that would be awesome
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  #519  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 15:33
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
PM me your email and I'll send them along
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  #520  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 15:36
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
On the way
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  #521  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 17:12
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Thanks Bruce
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  #522  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 17:14
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Next item for all to enjoy who partake.


Merry Christmas, on Flickr

Last edited by pblackburn; Sun 08 December 2013 at 17:28..
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  #523  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 17:24
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Here is the Bitly link to the 3dClip on DropBox

Merry Christmas
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  #524  
Old Sun 08 December 2013, 19:35
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Hey Bruce, could you shoot those Vectric Advent files my way, too?
I Always forget to check for them....
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  #525  
Old Mon 09 December 2013, 12:20
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Vectric with regards to making copies of the Christmas files

We respectfully ask that users do not share the Advent Calendar files as noted within the terms of use on the Advent Calendar web page (highlighted below).

Terms of Use: The artwork is provided on the understanding that it will only be used with Vectric software programs. You may use the designs to carve parts for sale but the files and vectors within them (or any derivatives) may not be sold to, or shared with anyone else.

To help remind you to download the daily vector art, you could consider the following tips...

1. Set a daily calendar reminder in Outlook, Google Calendars or on your mobile device
2. Set your web browser up to have the Advent Calendar as your homepage, or alternatively as an extra tab that opens when your browser launches

Cheers,
Stu
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  #526  
Old Mon 09 December 2013, 13:48
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Thanks for sharing this Nils
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  #527  
Old Mon 09 December 2013, 19:16
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Hopefully, No one got mad at me for asking.
Its pretty clear on my build thread that I'm a registered Aspire v4.0 owner.

Edit: I did set up a reminder, and got todays all on my own...
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  #528  
Old Mon 09 December 2013, 21:20
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Darren,

I am up for getting free stuff but when the owner set some rules, we all some times need a little reminder. I had some one take one of my design that I posted on the forum and start making them for resale. I don't think any one like that happening but it does.
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  #529  
Old Tue 10 December 2013, 01:24
racedirector
Just call me: Bruce #122
 
New South Wales
Australia
Pete, I forgot to ask, what opens the 3DClip file for the Christmas sign? Would love to try out cutting one of them thar plaques......
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  #530  
Old Tue 10 December 2013, 13:31
darren salyer
Just call me: Darren #101
 
Wentzville mo
United States of America
Duly noted, Nils...
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  #531  
Old Tue 10 December 2013, 18:36
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Well, Nils was thinking ahead. I must admit taking the time to read is the most important part.

Information about the uploaded file.

Before you ask anything read this carefully.

I try to always give as much as I have been able to receive. I will never be able to afford to start a business to make money at this. So I do hope someone else will. It is only a hobby for me. Just be sure to remind yourself that you did not create it and remember doing nice things and giving credit where it is due heals the soul.

The uploaded file above provides all the stuff I made with Aspire minus some models, the deer and the tree. If you download it, you will see that. Trust me, I have double and triple checked it to make sure that it is that way. If you have Aspire 4, you already have the models so you can add them easily. I cannot post or share them per their restrictions located in the clipart documentation. Sorry ..... I can share any stuff I made on my own. A 3dClip can be imported into Aspire.

A Different File

I have uploaded another file that I will provide a link to below. It is an Aspire crv3d format. So if you don't have it, this post does no good to you, for that I am sorry. For new Aspire users, it shows all the vectors (they are appropriately named) that I used in making the plaque. This way you can follow how I made it.

I tend to make my panels with my own edge pattern once I locate a silhouette I like and create vectors. I like the edge to not be so perfect, I like the imperfection as wood is not perfect. It is just way to easy to use the two rail sweep method to create an awesome looking panel from a few vectors. I used the two rail sweep and filled the center for the main panel (see vectors). I tend to make all my models extremely large and scale down to use when I am happy. They tend to keep better detail that way.

I then create a vector for the scene area first and then create my scene models within that layout.

The pole I made in Blender and imported as an object. I made everything else for the pole in Aspire including the sign for the north pole (another 2 rail sweep). The NORTH POLE lettering, bracket and hangers was created using the Extrude and Weave technique. The Snowman I created in Aspire but the Hat was made in Blender and imported as an object. The ground snow is from a flat component and sculpted with all the features of sculpting. I made a v-carve for the Merry Christmas lettering and a cutout profile then made a component from preview to add back to model for making the 3dClip. You will see the vectors there. I have to create a component to remove enough area so the letter component will allow the letters to show. Once I have added everything I like, I use a technique from one of the tutorials to be able to remove the parts of the model that will extend outside the dish. First I create the dish component and name is so. Then I create a flat component the same height as the model and as large as the surface of the panel. I change the combine mode of that component to Low then uncheck it. I use a vector to trim off the scene model outside the dish but make sure it is not outside the flat component. Then I switch back on the Flat component and it gets a flat surface to the top of the finished model. Just have to make sure my hierarchy is correct.

All of this information is supplied with Aspire tutorials and that is where I learned most of it. I hope this helps someone with their Mechmate that is just starting up and purchases Aspire. I had to learn this stuff the hard way through a brute force method and if seeing an example helps, then it was for the best. This Mechmate has made it possible to create this stuff and for that I am a lucky person.

I hope it is put to good use.

I tried to answer any questions that may have formed while you were reading this. I know there is a lot of general information here so read it again before posting a question.

Here is the Aspire file.

Last edited by pblackburn; Tue 10 December 2013 at 18:57..
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  #532  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 02:44
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Pete,

What a nice gift you are giving and you have put a lot of work into designing your work and creating this write up. What a great machine and community Gerald created when he decided to share his knowledge with others. There are a lot of creative and generous members on this and the Vectric site.

Thank you.

Merry Christmas and may each of you have a Happy and successful New Year!
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  #533  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 06:25
Alan_c
Just call me: Alan (#11)
 
Cape Town (Western Cape)
South Africa
Send a message via Skype™ to Alan_c
Thanks Pete!
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  #534  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 16:04
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
No problem fellow Mechmateys.

I have my testing data from my Jet dust collector with pictures. I will include a description of the findings as strange as they appear to be. I definitely need to make some changes. I will be starting to upgrade this week into next.
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  #535  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 19:23
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
Unhappy

I was talking to my fellow technicians at work trying to find the best way to achieve a high velocity at the shoe. We all had many opinions. But the consensus was to change line size and test it. My boss told me I could take home some material for a test setup to find out what reading I could expect before spending money. I brought back home the Air Velocity Meter plus 18 foot of 6" hose. So here is what I found. The pictures will be small so to see the full sized images please follow the like to Flickr.


Testing of Jet DC 1200VX-CK1 2HP 1PH



I intentional coiled all the hose to create the worst condition for these tests. Does no good with perfectly straight smooth pipe, no one has that setup.

First test with 20 foot of 4" flexible hose.
Unfortunately I did not get picture readings of this, I would swear I did but apparently not. So you have to accept my word. I had 2800 FPM (244 CFM) in the center and 3900 FPM (340 CFM )at the edge. Miserable at best.

Second test with 18 foot of 6" flexible hose with a 6 to 4 reducer on the end.

Configuration, on Flickr


Center Reading 5205 FPM (454 CFM), on Flickr


Bottom Edge Reading 6690 FPM (584 CFM), on Flickr


Top Edge Reading 7660 FPM (668 CFM), on Flickr

This is a definite improvement over the 4" alone with a slight increase in velocity with the reduction

3rd Test with 18 foot of 6" flexible hose with a 6" to 4" reducer with 10' of 4" hose attached


Center Reading 5120 FPM (446 CFM), on Flickr


Top Edge Reading 6130 FPM (534 CFM) , on Flickr


Bottom Edge Reading 6620 FPM (577 CFM), on Flickr

Not much of a difference from the 6" to 4" reducer only. But better than the 4" hose alone.

4th Test with 18 foot of 6" flexible hose with a 6" to 4" reducer with 4' straight pipe attached


Center Reading 6975 FPM (609 CFM), on Flickr


Top Edge Reading 9825 FPM (857 CFM), on Flickr


Bottom Edge Reading 9685 FPM (845 CFM), on Flickr

This is amazingly better and I was a little shocked so I went back and double checked with only the reducer.
They can be viewed here
Recheck 1
Recheck 2
Recheck 3

4th test with 6" open end.


Center Reading 3925 (770 cfm), on Flickr


Top Edge Reading 4410 FPM (865 CFM), on Flickr


Bottom Edge Reading 1075 FPM (211 CFM), on Flickr

For some reason the bottom edge drops way off on the open end 6". I checked it 3 times and it was the same number. Don't know why.

My Conclusion

While 6" straight to the dust shoe would offer the highest CFM there is only a little loss of running 6" flex to a reducer with a 4" pipe stub down to the shoe. While this falls short of Bill Pentz's recommendation of greater than 1000 CFM, it does show that a 2HP motor can produce a fairly high air velocity and CFM than I would have guessed. I will be interested to see how using straight pipe affects the readings. I used coiled hose with only duct tape to seal to try and create a bad run, as suction through a hose causes so much turbulence. While this is far short of a perfect test, I tried to maintain integrity throughout. I am in no way trying to influence anyone and advise you do your own testing. If you were to ask me which unit to use, I would tell you to read Bill Pentz's pages and make up your own mind. I am fortunate enough to have access to some specialized equipment and like to share the things I find.
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  #536  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 19:40
Tom Ayres
Just call me: Tom #117
 
Bassett (VA)
United States of America
That is some very interesting info. I'm very surprised of the differences in the top and bottom edge velocities. Can anyone explain the physics there? What cfm is your dc rated (by the mfg, of coarse)? Do you think a 3 or 5 hp motor actually changes the velocity to meet Bill's target of 1000 cfm? Do you think by changing the diameter size of the impellers on the 2 hp unit would increase velocity or just shorten the life of the motor? Something to ponder...
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  #537  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 19:51
dbinokc
Just call me: DB #118
 
Oklahoma
United States of America
I think if the hose were held away from the floor, the CFM readings would be more symmetric. Maybe hold the end of the hose vertically up.
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  #538  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 20:03
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
I would agree that it is from the position of the hose with the 6" lower reading. Your velocity is always higher at the edge of a duct with vacuum as it is being rapidly pulled around a sharp area. We see that with our metal duct and flexible duct at work.
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  #539  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 20:36
servant74
Just call me: Jack
 
Nashville (Tennessee)
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Ayres View Post
That is some very interesting info. I'm very surprised of the differences in the top and bottom edge velocities. Can anyone explain the physics there? What cfm is your dc rated (by the mfg, of coarse)? Do you think a 3 or 5 hp motor actually changes the velocity to meet Bill's target of 1000 cfm? Do you think by changing the diameter size of the impellers on the 2 hp unit would increase velocity or just shorten the life of the motor? Something to ponder...
After going through the Pentz spreadsheet, yes, the HP matters, but there are so many variables. One thing from his write up is you can't trust the CFM rating from the MFG. Not that they are lying, but each mfg's interpretation of 'truth' can be different.

I suggest going trough, the numbers yourself.
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  #540  
Old Wed 11 December 2013, 20:43
pblackburn
Just call me: Pete #98
 
South-Central Pennsylvania
United States of America
The DC is rated at 1200 CFM. Remember there are leaks everywhere in my test for a reason. Jet is very good at rating their equipment. Bill Pentz even acknowledges it here in the lesser options. I knew from reading Bill's pages that the 1100 performed well but not up to his standards of the filter. I bought this for only this machine. Changing the motor would not help much in my opinion. The current draw on the motor is low so it does not that many forces pushing back on the windings raising the current. The only way to increase vacuum level would be to enlarge the blower impeller with properly made housing.

Still even at that, some dust collection is better than none at all. I am just stating the obvious and not starting a fight. But a collector alone is not all that is needed for good air management. Fresh air changes and housekeeping are all part of it. A balanced indoor air pressure helps also. I can tell you that where I work the magic number is not less than 4000 FPM on a 4" drop for the type of metal dust and powder we have. The testing they do go through to have arrived at that number is far below PELs and TLVs. Unfortunately this is not something that most of us can afford to have done. So the next best thing is to strive for the perfect system. In the aspect of keeping this real, we all strive to provide the best dust collection and most of us do continue to upgrade our systems as we move along. If we were all rich we all would have a perfect system, but a perfect system that is not maintained and tested from time to time will degrade to the point that you have a problem and you did not know it.

If you take anything from the test above, only 4" is not enough for anything involving dust. And read, read, read. There is great information out there. Bill's is one them.

Last edited by pblackburn; Wed 11 December 2013 at 20:45..
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