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  #91  
Old Thu 24 January 2013, 06:42
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
True that. You've already proven you can built one. I'm still trying
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  #92  
Old Thu 24 January 2013, 07:01
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
Fox, Don't get too exited about your motor delivery. your 1 month is almost up...
This is my suggestion.
While you are waiting, you can start work on the Kitchen Table Project. There are actually a lot of work if you are doing it for the 1st time, many of the builders with your similar electrical & electronics skill (me included) know it very well. Figure out how to power up the BOB, the cooling fan & other bells & whistle. The E-stop + Mains contactor/switch circuit & the DC Power supply. that will eat up some of your idle time. As for the testing, you can grab any stepper motors for the purpose. Stepper motors can be salvage from old printers, air conditioner ... etc use your imagination.
If you still has time, start stuffing up the control panels & wire up.
Even if the motors are not delivered when you are done with your control panel. You should be working on your rail grinding & mechanical installations & more....
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  #93  
Old Thu 24 January 2013, 09:54
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Motors: decided.
I have decided my back up on the motors ( Danilo's tip has 29 pieces in stock, and can be delivered in a few days),so have asked a pretty please just in case to Claudia if she can make a miracle happen, and if the motors still could still ship with all the other stuff, if not, fall back on that.

My control box models is decided/ordered. Will use two boxes on table; one with everything besides PC and VFD which will be in the second one ( is that an issue? pc and vfd ? I know some do not recommend vfd inside controlbox because of interference with bob, will it also cause trouble for the pc ? ). Will use a pivoting monitor and keyboard ( maybe touchscreen later on) like Liaoh did fixed pivoting on corner machine.

Controlbox
My powersupply parts decided/ordered.
My drivers are decided/ordered.
Motors: see above

Am looking at the other electrical parts for the kitchen table project.
Cables decided form Gerards advises, need to calculate length as I am much bigger then Doug Fords table - example lengths.

Going to use BIG surplus heatsink similair to pmdx, in side of box for drivers etc, no fan needed I hope.

Bob ( USBCNC ) need 9-24 volts powersupply ( am looking at second hand 24 v 5,0 amps din rail transformer offered for cheap at local ebay ) Otherwise use Geralds example of transformer from his box or cheap plug in. Run e-stops with 24 volt relais as well.

Will built two sockets for mains in side of box like Gerald.

Thermistor relays not needed as I think my cheap chinese 2,2 KW ordered from lovehappyshopping does not have this option ? Could I instead protect it from overheating by limiting current with a fuse ?

Dinrail terminals blocks you always but as a single row (I see at farnell) ? So I need to buy 30 single rows with double contacts, right ?

Mains contacter deciding on it( how many amps will be enough, should I just take the same like mains ( 16A or 32A for 3 phase ?)

In doubt if if input with 3 phase or single phase power ( have both at shop, but 380 not yet in the room I am planning to place the mechmate ). Any advandge beside the higher load on using 3 phase ?

E- stops buttons etc decided.
Want to have ordered all parts latest next Saturday ( saturday I can talk to a friend who's electrician, just to make sure I am not blowing myself up).

Last edited by Fox; Thu 24 January 2013 at 09:56..
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  #94  
Old Thu 24 January 2013, 17:48
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
Control panel space is never big enough

I reckon the VFD deserve a panel box all by itself. I like my PC away from everything else. Especially when I'm in a hurry to build.

If you can afford it. 3kW spindle will be nicer to own & use.

Since you are in a hurry, I would say leave the thermistor for later. BTW, I'd not known of anyone burning their spindle because of overheating during operation but premature bearing worn out is fairly common when you plunge too hard at the beginning of your CNC cutting career.

You can never have too many Din rail terminals blocks.

While you are at it. Look at dust collecting as well. This is something you really need when you are sweeping the wood chips later. Vacuum table can wait, for now...

Last edited by KenC; Thu 24 January 2013 at 18:00..
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  #95  
Old Fri 25 January 2013, 02:18
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Ken,

Correction: Vacuum table is needed. Dust can wait. Cutting PMMA and Polycarbonate sheets into many individual parts for first job !
I think I will still try the PC with the VFD or PC with BOB in one box thingie, but for my first assignment I'll just put the PC on a chair somewhere, away from all interference.

Last edited by Fox; Fri 25 January 2013 at 02:21..
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  #96  
Old Fri 25 January 2013, 03:47
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
Anything that make you happy
You might be right. a simple vacuum table will suck any thin plastic sheet snugly.
Anyway, dust collector work badly on some plastic chips.
One last attempt to state my point on separate PC. There will only be one or maybe 2 very long cable (which is the printer cable & the HID console). A lot easier handle & aesthetically pleasing than having a big bundle of cables running all over the place. & long cables = $$$
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  #97  
Old Fri 25 January 2013, 04:57
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Ken,
Thank you right now I am not so happy, encountered some nasty setbacks (steelorder was F*d up by the steelcompany so I am 4 days behind on my schedule) + I made a calc error.

Points taken on the cables, I would need to run 3 cables: 1 USB ( for USB hub in monitor ), 1 monitor cable, 1 monitor signal cable. ( mouse and keyboard are usb and can plug into monitor ), but Liaoh I noticed put his pc in his monitor housing I might follow, just means I need to build a housing/buy one.
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  #98  
Old Fri 25 January 2013, 17:45
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
In my pass life as a project manager, I always say " You can only plan...What ever will be will be..."

You forgot keyboard cable, mouse cable & maybe a USB Hub cable. Don't forget the power cord for the Monitor...

If you go liaoh's way, Just buy a panel PC & mount it on a casing. that will save you tons of work & time. & the casing can be made slick & streamline. I am dreaming of a ATM kiosk look-a-like panel...

Last edited by KenC; Fri 25 January 2013 at 17:48..
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  #99  
Old Sun 27 January 2013, 08:05
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands

I was forced to decide to outsource the job.

I feel the pain of this decisions both financially and personal... as I am not the kind of person to easily give up on a deadline (in fact I never did in my whole life - it's the first time ever I did not achieve the goal I set out to accomplish in the time I intended).

We all knew everything should work with me to be able to make the deadline and due to recent issues which were mostly out of my hands; steel not delivered in time, supplier lead-time issues, Chinese new year, my wife being ill passed week (I had to take care of our 2 year old) and now this weekend my friend whom I was supposed to weld the frame with at his shop struck with illness... I surrendered; it's getting very unlikely/impossible my Mechmate will be completed in time and I'll be able to produce everything needed on it within the next 2 weeks. I was pulling in a lot of favors with friends and family (and you guys) to get it done in time, as I could not do it all on my own in this short time, but sometimes favors can't be had within a deadline.

It was a very hard decision to make.

I will be continuing the build, the steel is already cut to size and piled up in my friends shop, so we'll weld it up as soon as he's feeling better to have it out his shop... but everything will be in a slower pace.
I myself will take a breather for a few days from the forum and the project to cope with the disappointment. Thanks all for your support so far, see you back somewhere later this week.

Last edited by Fox; Sun 27 January 2013 at 08:12..
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  #100  
Old Mon 28 January 2013, 01:25
southernduckie
Just call me: Andrew (Duckie)
 
new south wales
Australia
Sorry to hear about your situation i am sure u will look back and realise this is not so much of a bad thing, spend the time and get the MM working right and keep looking for the next job life will reward you.
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  #101  
Old Wed 30 January 2013, 08:15
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Guys,

I am back ! Thank you for all the kind words on the forum and by PM ( you know who you are ). I think it was the right decision in the end... it has to be now anyway

Spoke with my buddy today, he's feeling better but got a lot of catching up to do on his regular work. This week will be spend for both me and him doing just that ( I also had a lot of regular work piling up when focusing on the MechMate the past 3 weeks).

Upcoming weekend I will prepare/double check myself on which-hole-goes-where and how-to-weld-what-to-what, so he does not have to wait for me to figure out stuff while we are actually welding/drilling/fabricating, and it should be pretty smooth sailing.

All steel is already cut to size and all laser cut parts are also ready ( including laser cut and engraved bolt on flanges for easy alignment).

Next week we will spend the evenings to weld and drill the table, gantry... all the major steel assemblies basically, and the goal is to have the thing out his shop and into mine before the second weekend of February.

I will do all remaining ordering/fabricating from this point onwards by myself in the evenings and weekends. I will start with the third week of February on the belt drives, rack and pinion or the kitchen table project...whichever parts are in first.

Keep you posted !

Last edited by Fox; Wed 30 January 2013 at 08:17..
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  #102  
Old Mon 04 February 2013, 11:35
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi guys ( Ross I e-mailed you as well about this) ,

tomorrow night we start to drill and weld the base table together !
Exciting stuff.

One last minute thing keeps nagging me tonight and wondering for a second opinion from (a larger-) bolted table owner:

Did you "oversize" your bolt holes ? If you did... by how much and both holes or only 1 of a pair ?

I contemplate: a bolted connection is already weaker than welding, so a perfect fit would help with strength. But if I drill 'exact' 12 mm holes, I wonder if it'll ever come apart with welding stresses and such ( or can be re-assembled for that matter ) ? I noticed for instance the support board is bolted with M8 but the holes are 9 mm. Did you use the same +1 mm strategy ? I don't want to be too tight-nor unnecessarily loose on the critical joints, it does not have to come apart everyday, and the bolts then will be replaced anyway.

I've searched the forum but can't find anyone mentioning holesizes/tolerances besides Ric, but his table is a fair bit smaller then mine will be.

(I do know about the 4 mm hammering pins trick for re-alignment purposes, but even then I think it might become a big pain in the ass to get bolts back in holes when they are 'exact' to size ?)

Ps. I am going to be using M12 (8.8 or 12.9 HT) bolts, with self locking nuts/locktited. My best guess right now would be 1 hole at 12 mm and 1 corresponding hole at 12.5 mm for all my flanges/main connections (each connection 4x2 holes)???

Last edited by Fox; Mon 04 February 2013 at 11:51..
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  #103  
Old Mon 04 February 2013, 12:15
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Bolted table 5' x 10'
Main beams and crossbeam's drilled 1/32" over for a the 1/2" bolt.
Thus - a 17/32"" hole on both holes of joint - for a total of 1/16" movement.
Angled structural washers on tapered flange side of both sides of joint.

I know many others adhered to different methods or standards - for me, it worked well with a very square and parallel table base.
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  #104  
Old Mon 04 February 2013, 13:04
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Thanks Sean,

Translated it into metric (Geeeeez I would go crazy working with these fractions in my workshop ):

1.524 x 3,048 meter table
bolts 12,7 mm
both bolt holes 0.7938 mm oversize = holes 13,49375 mm
movement for each connection = 1,5875 millimeter

so I might be heading for two holes at 12,5 mm ( instead of one at 12 and one at 12,5 mm ).

Ps. I picked up on the angle washers earlier ... but I only need them on my support board luckily.... as I use I beam and laser cut flanges for my table design.

Last edited by Fox; Mon 04 February 2013 at 13:08..
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  #105  
Old Mon 04 February 2013, 13:57
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Fox,
If you layout for the hole drilling process is spot on, then limiting your drill size to one tool is most likely okay.

Some of the builders have "less than precise" layout methods and need that little bit of wiggle room.

The design of the MM is fashioned to accommodate these imperfections in tolerance. Bolt together main table has been done countless times, but not part of the MM original intent. You do sacrifice a bit of rigidity with the bolting, but it is minimized with proper cross bracing and spoilboard attachment.

12,5 mm would be my choice with 12mm fasteners. Less drill bit sizes, less money.
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  #106  
Old Mon 04 February 2013, 17:55
Surfcnc
Just call me: Ross #74
 
Queensland
Australia
Fox I have answered your question by hotmail as your 'respond by email" is turned on on your forum settings.

Both bolting and welding of tables are very strong.
Most movement is not typically in the bolted joints or the welds, it is along the spans of the metal.
The material itself has elasticity and only good design can minimise that but never fully eliminates it.
Even epoxy granite has some resonant frequency.
It is important to not over think or over design the Mechmate and get on with the business of building a machine with good tight tolerances.

On the question of strength, a poor weld with low penetration is probably weaker than a properly tightened M12 8.8 grade bolted junction.
It is extremely difficult in the real world to make accurate generalisations about strength.
Imagine your self suspended from a beginners weld 20 stories up or from a M12 HT bolt.
Personally I would choose the M12 HT bolt as it is more of a known quantity and that is exactly why critical welds need to be certified.

Regards
Ross
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  #107  
Old Tue 05 February 2013, 00:14
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Thanks Ross,

Got your advices !
Based on averaging both your and Seans approach/advice I'll be trying to keep them true to size initially ( your approach), and can always enlarge them a bit more if/when needed (Sean). Making a hole smaller is much more difficult I reckon. I will test it throughout the process and adapt where necessary. Thanks guys !

Into the workshop tonight; will post some pictures if it's not too late when I am back home.


Last edited by Fox; Tue 05 February 2013 at 00:17..
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  #108  
Old Tue 05 February 2013, 12:55
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
We have lift-off !

We got 3 hours in tonight - not as much as I would have liked - but my friend starts at 6 in the morning so he gets to decide when we go home . Felt great to have physical parts in my hands.
I managed to check everything against the drawings/dimensions and my cutting list, found a few small 'mistakes' on quantities (most in my favor), and welded small assemblies flanges on main beams, feet on legs etc, numbered all matching parts for ease of welding. To be continued next Thursday night with lots of drilling and welding. For now some pictures:

Some of the lasercut parts:

Test fitting:

Main beams:

Pretty straight:

Last edited by Fox; Tue 05 February 2013 at 13:05..
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  #109  
Old Tue 05 February 2013, 14:13
xraydude
Just call me: Ted #131
 
New Orleans, LA
United States of America
Okay, I am jealous of that jig/fixture/welding table. Used one in a previous job years ago and there is nothing like having the right tool for the job.

ted
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  #110  
Old Wed 06 February 2013, 07:59
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
@Xraydude

Indeed, it's really nice to have all those helpful tools and huge level surfaces etc around. I could do it in my own shop/garage just like most of you guys but this was an offer of my friend I could not refuse.
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  #111  
Old Wed 06 February 2013, 08:04
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
QUESTION:

1030420W Welding the "monocoque" Y-Car

Is this right ?



Mine is like this ? Is that a mistake: should 1 have been cut in mirror ? Or is Geralds example an old drawing that has been modified ?

Last edited by domino11; Sun 10 February 2013 at 10:26.. Reason: remove spam links
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  #112  
Old Wed 06 February 2013, 09:28
xraydude
Just call me: Ted #131
 
New Orleans, LA
United States of America
Yours is correct. The elongated slots should be diagonally across from each other.

Ted
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  #113  
Old Wed 06 February 2013, 10:36
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Geralds picture is of the original design. Your is the latest cut which does not have left or right sides. If you check you can only get the tabs to line up one way.
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  #114  
Old Wed 06 February 2013, 11:17
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
I noticed that of the tabs, which made me less doubtful, but still.. good to know guys thnx
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  #115  
Old Sun 10 February 2013, 07:46
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Sorry about the Spam links under previous photos, they were added by the free image hosting and I can't remove them because I am not allowed to edit the posts after 30 minutes, and noticed it afterwards

Update:
worked about 8 hours with my friend past week divided over 3 nights and a Saturday morning, and here's what happened in a short photo essay:

Handy tools:

I bought a self-centering center for copying center of holes (recommended ! works a treat)



My friend had a self-centering magnetic drill press:




So I drilled a lot of holes 6 mm holes followed by enlarging the same to 12,5 mm holes ( I wished there was a shortcut to that but good holes/good work takes time)...while my friend started on the welding:




By the time I was finished with drilling the main beams, the legs etc:



My friend had welded these wheel supports:



And these front and back frames:





And these side frames:



So when we bolted all lasercut flanges ( holes 12 mm ) to these frames ( 12,5 mm holes ) we were able to weld up from these parts asemblies like this:



To a table like this (2,5 meter x 3,85 meter):





Which to me and my friends utter joy (even he was surprised it was that close) leveled out within 0,25 mm precision on parallel,level and square for the main x Beams, and on 90.00 degrees on all 4 legs in both directions, measured with a digital level (accuracy 0.05 degrees). I know this kind of excitement is a bit childish cause it'll move that much just by sitting in the sun, but still... And it's very stout with 50x50x5mm square tubing, 100x100 I-Beam profile legs, and 200x100 I-Beam profile main rails, and the 80x45 UNP for the table.

After we high-fived each other and ate a sandwich for celebration [ 10:00 in the morning after starting at 6:00 AM + at his workplace meant no celebratory beers ;-) ] he then started to clean up all the tools and dress some welds.. and I drilled (by hand) 4 mm holes trough all the way for the flanged connections for ease of re-aligment with 4 mm roll pins in the future.

Then we unbolted the entire frame, and we're able to carry everything out with relative ease (still heavy/big metal).
I did measuring/weighing in my CAD program when designing the table so that everything can be carried by two persons trough a standard door opening.

I think we even could have made our holes 12 mm everywhere, as we had no issues whatsoever on getting the bolts out. It really helps my buddy does metal for a living, so he know a thing or two about welding and distortion + he has all the alignment tools and tables for big steel a M.M.M. (Man-on-a-Mechmate Mission) could wish for.

Then it went in to the back of a 4.3 meter deep loading bay of a rental Extra-Extended-Mercedes-Sprinter-Van ( I made this boltable design so I can still move it around with a 'widely available' rental van, and I do not need to hire a truck driver ) :



and now sits in my shop... (...disassembled )
I still have to drill the holes for the support board after i rebuild it ( I can borrow my friends magnetic drill for that), and my friend will weld up the gantry and carriage...
Then the main table will be finished and look something like this:



I can then move on to the rails, Z-slide and kitchen table. But first need to get the big assignment out the door, and catch up in general on parts of my business I have been slacking so besides some ordering I'll go quiet on the build for a week or 2.

Last edited by Fox; Sun 10 February 2013 at 08:08..
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  #116  
Old Sun 10 February 2013, 08:50
jessyjames
Just call me: James
 
Reno, Nevada
United States of America
Wow. That is just too cool. Thanks for sharing this information and pictorial with us. Sure wish I had friends like this who also do metal work.

Again thanks for the pictures. It's so neat seeing how other people build their tables and techniques.

Keep up the great work,

James
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  #117  
Old Sun 10 February 2013, 11:13
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Thanks James,

I know excactly what you mean...as I was hunting for these kind of pics only a few weeks ago ( still am actually ). Matter of fact is, most of my solutions are copies of, or directly inspired on pictures I found here on this forum from other members. Sharing experiences is what makes this forum work, as we can learn from each other, and then pass on the knowledge gained to others.

Since a thread usually starts with a lot of technical words/questions (mine did) I"ll try to keep posting pics on most of my major steps, from now on. Not always easy with the grinder in one hand and the expensive mobile in the other

Last edited by Fox; Sun 10 February 2013 at 11:18..
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  #118  
Old Sun 10 February 2013, 11:49
parrulho
Just call me: Paulo #108
 
willemstad
Netherlands Antilles
Nice table, neat and funcional. Congratulations. Good tools make the work more easy.
wish to have some of this at my place...
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  #119  
Old Tue 12 February 2013, 06:36
Fox
Just call me: Fox
 
Amsterdam
Netherlands
Hi Guys,

I have a question/poll about the cable management.
I have obviously read the Cable management thread by Gerald, and am leaning on using the 57Wx25H energy chain (inside dimensions) for all three axes ( would this work on the Z - or is that overkill ). I will be designing custom supports for the energy chain, which I want to finish shortly so I can round up the base table. For this I need to decide the size of the energy chain first.

Looking for some opinions from Mechmaters using watercooled spindles + maybe some additional accessories on their machines if that is indeed what their are using also or if 38x25 mm would already suffice for cabling and waterhoses etc ?

For the 38x25 mm I have seen a cheap option on our local craigslist at the moment, and it seems Deitech also only stocks that size
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  #120  
Old Tue 12 February 2013, 07:21
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Fox,
The use of the larger chain is not an issue for the Z as long as you have room with your spindle/dust collection set up.
I personally used the same size E-chain for all 3 axis' without any issues. I found it to be more cost effective too - only one purchase.
My extra long 48" z - is shown here with similar size chain your recommending:

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...mreish&page=99
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