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  #1  
Old Mon 24 November 2008, 19:53
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Connecting a Chinese Water Cooled Spindle- Connecting power to the spindle

This thread is a follow up to my rantings about installing my 2.2 kw water cooled spindle and VFD. Hopefully I'll be able to fill in the details and present the info in a more structured and less conversational way. If its OK with Gerald I can include some diagrams and photos.

This post will be about connecting the spindle to the VFD power source.
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  #2  
Old Mon 24 November 2008, 20:06
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Hey, you had BETTER include some diagrams and photos!
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  #3  
Old Mon 24 November 2008, 22:00
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Water Cooled Spindle Connections - Connecting the Spindle

Heres the first in a short set of posts with directions on how to connect the VFD to the Spindle. These are the lower priced water cooled spindles from China. I'm posting as a follow up to my ramblings on a thread about Chinese water cooled spindles.

First, a warning. These connections apply ONLY to the VFD that I use, which is an Andeli ADL6000G/P single phase VFD and a 2.2 KW 3phase AC water cooled spindle. If you don't have this EXACT VFD, you need to READ THE MANUAL for your spindle to be certain that you have your connections correct.

Second- The voltages present in the VFD and spindle are exposed on the terminals you will be connecting to. DO NOT MAKE ANY CONNECTIONS WITH POWER CONNECTED TO THE VFD. If you are not certain how to work on this equipment safely GET THE HELP YOU NEED to work SAFELY. THERE ARE DANGEROUS VOLTAGES INSIDE THIS EQUIPMENT!

OK, First, lets connect the 3phase power from the VFD to the spindle. I used a 12AWG extension cord and cut the plugs off. The VFD voltages to the spindle range between 50V to 400V, with up to 7 amps. At the bottom of the VFD under the plastic cover plate are several terminal strips. Look for the letters UVW. Connect one of the conductors to each of these. For example, connect the black wire to the U terminal. Connect the White wire to the V terminal, and connect the green wire to the W terminal. Use spade lugs and a crimp tool to make a strong connection.

Up at the spindle, connect the black wire to lug #2, the white wire to lug #3, and the Green wire to lug #4. LEAVE lug#1 untouched. It is mechanically and electrically connected to the plug shell, and is grounded.

Onward to connect power to the VFD. The VFD needs 220V AC Single Phase power. This comes in two legs with ground. Again, i used a 12AWG extension cord for the connections. Connect the black wire to the VFD terminal R. Connect the White wire to the VFD terminal marked S. Connect the green wire to the SCREW just to the left located on the circuit board. See the picture to help locate this.

I would strongly recommend some sort of power off switch on the AC power line. I used a paddle switch that switches BOTH LEGS of the 220V that I got from Grizzly tools for $17USD. Its rated for 17amps at 220V, which is more than enough for the VFD. This switch is a failsafe so that if the software locks up and doesn't shut off the spindle you have a mechanical/electrical way to shut off power to the spindle.

Here's a pic of the connections so far:


After connecting these, DO NOT TURN THE SPINDLE ON. It may come on at full speed, or doing strange things. We will need to do some simple programming to the VFD before we run the spindle, and set up speed control before we fire up the VFD.

If you have a meter to test, you can check the power line and spindle connections for continuity. You can also verify that only the #1 lug at the spindle connects to ground via the plug shell. Its worth a few minutes of testing to be certain you don't fry anything when power is applied.

I hope this is not too much info. If this is helpful, I'll continue and put together the info to connect a speed controller to the VFD.
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  #4  
Old Mon 24 November 2008, 22:38
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
More info on that VFD:
http://andeligroup.com/products4.asp?classid=85. (Don't bother with the 3.5MB pdf link on that page - it doesn't show much more than the page itself.)
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  #5  
Old Mon 24 November 2008, 23:04
Alan_c
Just call me: Alan (#11)
 
Grabouw (Western Cape)
South Africa
Send a message via Skype™ to Alan_c
"Up at the spindle, connect the black wire to lug #2, the white wire to lug #3, and the Green wire to lug #4. LEAVE lug#1 untouched. It is mechanically and electrically connected to the plug shell, and is grounded."


Wayne, I am a bit concerned with this line, you should be using at least a 4 core cable to the 3 phase spindle, that lug 4 is the earth connection and should be connected to the earth point on the VFD, dont rely on the general earthing of the machine. (idealy that cable should be shielded as well, which makes "extension lead" less than ideal)
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  #6  
Old Tue 25 November 2008, 03:28
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Wayne don't forget the water cooling set up, if you have completed that.

RGDS
IRfan
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  #7  
Old Tue 25 November 2008, 07:03
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Shielded power cable

Alan, I think you are probably right, particularly with the lead to the spindle. A braided ground shield would be connected to one end, up at the spindle, and would carry any cable noise to ground at the spindle. If you don't do this your spindle power can cause interference to the motors I suppose.

I have not had this problem yet, but your advice is good. I did what was convenient, but a shielded cable would be a better choice. Good call.

About water cooling. I'm working on that right now. Its a pain, and I'm sure Im doing this the hard way somehow. I did follow advice from here to mount the pump, a small resevoir and small radiator up on the gantry. I did this because the line length of all that skinny tubing was just too much resistance for my little fish tank pump to work. Not near enough pump power.

But after working on the install this last weekend, I found that even with the fish tank pump right up at the Z axis, with just a few feet of tubing, the pump just didn't have enough uummph to do the job. If there were any air bubbles at all the pump could not pump past them and cooling stalled.

So, I'm now planning to overbuild all to hell, since I can't keep experimenting with it. I'm buying a Grundfoss 3 speed 1/25 HP pump like those used on my home radiant heat system. This pump should easily overcome the tube resistance and provide more than adequate flow.

I'll still leave the system up at the gantry. I used a transmission oil cooler that I found on Ebay, and rigged a little plastic container as a small fluid resevoir. If I find I need more coolant I can use a larger container easily.

Most of the pain is in getting the proper fittings for this. I'm no plumber, and getting fittings that go from hose barb to pipe thread in the sizes I needed proved to be a PITA. The core of the problem I think is that the fittings at the spindle are TOO SMALL. That is, they force you to use a 3/16 ID hose. THis small diameter hose is like a big flow resistor, the longer they are, the more the resistance. I used 3/8 hose between all the other parts, but the fittings at the spindle make this last loop choke the flow down so much that my good sized fish tank pump couldn't cut it.

So, the best solution would have been to find some 10-1 metric thread Male (I think) to 3/8 or metric equiv hose barb fittings. I couldn't find these locally or on the net. Arggh! If I could, I probably would have just put a much larger tank down on the floor and ran larger tubing up to the spindle.

I'm runnning plastic tubing now that should work. But if temps get very hot, this tubing will get too soft and may fail. I'll be watching for that. IF so, I'll replace it with proper temp rated hose, maybe heater hose from the auto parts store or the like.

The water pump stuff it costing much more than I thought, and eats right into the savings of this setup. But, I do believe that water cooling can work better, as water is a very good heat absorber. Also, the idea of not having a fan blowing dust and fighting my dust collection is a big plus. Even with the extra $200 in parts and pumps and extra hours monkeying with this, I'll be well under the price to install an equivalent fan spindle like the HSD for example.

I'll post some pics of the pump stuff just after I have it working, which should be Thanksgiving weekend.

Thanks for the input- I'm happy to hear of improvements on this project.

Wayne
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  #8  
Old Tue 25 November 2008, 09:48
kaartman
Just call me: Koning #20
 
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
Hi Wayne
I do agree with you, those pipe fittings is a pain in the neck, I am going to unscrew the fittings and cut the 3/16 off and braze or silver-solder larger ones to that screw thread to enable a larger hose diameter use, I have a set of Yamaha off road motorcycle radiators here that i want to use but the interesting thing is that the radiators only hold collectively 700ml of water and the spindel 100ml,
Good luck
Regards
Koning
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  #9  
Old Tue 25 November 2008, 09:52
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Regarding pump having problems with bubbles: The idea is to mount a pump near the bottom of a reservoir, so that the water can "fall" freely into the pump inlet. ie. don't take a tube out the top of the tank to the pump. Simplest method is a pump submerged in the tank. (indoor ornamental fountain pump).

Regarding type of tubing: Remember my rough calc from the other thread: "If your water flow fills a beer glass in a whole minute, the water temp will not rise more than 20C [36F] while cooling a 3kW [5HP] spindle that is only 80% efficient and running under full load. . . . if my memory of thermal calcs still serves me right. . . . ". If the water temp goes higher than that of a hot bath, your water flow rate is too little. No special high-temp hose will be needed. (Car heater hoses go over boiling point - that is far too hot be a coolant for a spindle)
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  #10  
Old Tue 25 November 2008, 10:19
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Beer glass calculations

Gerald

Thanks for the input. Using the beer glass calculation as a guideline, I'd guess it would take more than two hours to fill a worthy beer glass. And there is a risk that the filling would be intermittent or not at all because if any air bubbles can collect into a larger bubble the flow will stop.

I have the pump mounted underneath the resevoir, but it has to pump UP to the spindle thru that darn skinny tube. I can get some flow, but precious little.

From what you are saying about heat, I'm on the right track. I didn't think it should get hot enough to be a problem with the plastic tubing, in fact I have so much radiator that I bet it has a small risk of cooling too much. We'll see. But at any rate I'm gonna worry less about too much heat. Plastic tubing should be more than enough if bathwater temps are all we need to worry about.

Also, I don't use my machine in a full shift production mode. I'm a one man shop, cutting odd pieces and signs, some furniture parts and wierd projects. Not production cabinetry or the like. I suspect the real heat load will be well within the system I have. That is if I can get the water to flow even a little bit.

Wayne
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  #11  
Old Tue 25 November 2008, 10:28
gmessler
Just call me: Greg #15
 
Chicago IL
United States of America
Hi Wayne,

Here is a thought for shielding your extension cord.

http://www.mcmaster.com/itm/find.ASP...string=5537K14
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  #12  
Old Wed 26 November 2008, 05:25
garyc
Just call me: Garyc
 
Charlotte, North Carolina
United States of America
I do not know if these coolers would work for the Chinese spindles but it sure would be convenient if they did.
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=17515+HK
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  #13  
Old Wed 26 November 2008, 08:24
kaartman
Just call me: Koning #20
 
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
Hi Wayne
Please explain the wire that goes from the VFD connection points to the Control card, are you using a line reactor, if do you have one on the line -in and line - out.
enjoy the day
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  #14  
Old Wed 26 November 2008, 19:42
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Control card it next

Koning

I'll get some pics and a graphic on the connection for the speed controller hopefully sometime tomorrow. I don't watch football, so I should have more time.

I use a CNC4PC speed controller, and this is what I'll be detailing. But the general connections should be similar.

How's your install going?

Wayne
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  #15  
Old Thu 27 November 2008, 22:13
kaartman
Just call me: Koning #20
 
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
I haved dry assembled the spindle and all the motors, basicly all the components accept for the wiring, just had to see what it looks like because i am leaving for 3 week vacation to South Africa, my soul would not rest if i did not know what it looks like, I will compare and post diagram for wiring of spindel to PMDX controller

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  #16  
Old Thu 27 November 2008, 22:31
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Hi Koning, thats really a nice setup!

I like the clamps and their integration with the dust duct support!

RGDS
Irfan
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  #17  
Old Thu 27 November 2008, 22:41
gmessler
Just call me: Greg #15
 
Chicago IL
United States of America
Nice setup!
can't wait to see it with the brushes.
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  #18  
Old Fri 28 November 2008, 08:44
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaartman View Post
i am leaving for 3 week vacation to South Africa

Are you going to visit Gerald?

Will look good when the spindle and brushes are all installed.
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  #19  
Old Wed 04 February 2009, 01:54
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Water cooler for the spindle - Inside view

I requested deitec to share the interior images of their cooler so that I can build one myself here - with their permission I am posting this on our Forum.

Hope its the right thread though!

note all piping is that of 6 mm!

RGDS
IRfan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1.JPG (43.5 KB, 993 views)
File Type: jpg 2.JPG (43.1 KB, 1001 views)
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  #20  
Old Wed 04 February 2009, 05:08
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
That pump style is known as a flexible impeller pump. Popular in the boating world, but I havn't seen them that small......yet.

Personally don't think it is a good choice because the rubber impeller wears out if used for long periods - not intended for full time duty. If you run them dry by accident, then you get that burning rubber smell. They are good for short, high pressure spells. Like deck washing, fuel tank tansfer.
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  #21  
Old Wed 04 February 2009, 05:59
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Hmmm.... if nothing I will just build one - based of here

http://www.buildyouridea.com/hardwar...chem_pump.html

RGDS
IRfan
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  #22  
Old Wed 04 February 2009, 20:28
Greolt
Just call me: Greg
 
Victoria
Australia
Went to the trouble of typing this out (two fingers) on CNCzone so I might as well post it here as well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just my opinion which you can read and discard as you choose.

Can't help thinking people are complicating something that is simple. With gantry mounted radiators, expensive pumps, large diameter tubing, etc.

You can read all I know of thermal dynamics on the back of a weaties packet so I will quote Gerald D,

"If your water flow fills a beer glass in a whole minute, the water temp will not rise more than 20C [36F] while cooling a 3kW [5HP] spindle that is
only 80% efficient and running under full load. . . . if my memory of thermal calcs still serves me right. . . . "


My experience with a 1.5kw chinese spindle backs this up. You don't need a great deal of coolant flow.

My small pump pushes coolant through 10 meters of 1/4" ID tubing (5m up and 5m back) at 700ml/min. 24 fl/oz

The spindle has never got more than mildly warm. Just taken the chill off it.

IMO chasing high flow with fancy pumps, large diameter tubing, short runs (gantry mounted), fan cooled radiators etc is just overkill.

Moderate flow will do, coupled with a good sized heat sink. 2 or 3 gallons of coolant.

KISS principal comes into play here.

Good sized reservoir, somewhere out of the way. (not travelling on the gantry)
Cheap plastic 1/4" tubing. Easily replaced if it looses it's suppleness after a year or two.
Can be routed in existing cable management system (cable chain).
Good quality larger sized aquarium pump.

One thing I will add to that is it probably should have a flow sensor which will trigger a fault
in the controller (Stop spindle and motion) if pump stops while machine is untended.

But this goes for any system, simple or complicated.

There you go. Just my 2c worth.

Greg
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  #23  
Old Wed 04 February 2009, 22:00
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Thanks confirming the validity of my rough calcs Greg.

Yup, the simpler the better.
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  #24  
Old Thu 05 February 2009, 10:46
vishnu
Just call me: vishnu
 
Coimbatore(TN)
India
Greg as you suggested Irfan & me have a 2.2 Kw spindle and for the radiator i have a salvaged leaking car airconditioner copper cooler with me. i planned to keep them under the table with a 10 ltr coolont tank & a fan to cool with some radiator coolant additive to prevent corrision will that be ok.

Vishnu
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  #25  
Old Thu 05 February 2009, 10:59
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Vishnu, you won't need a fan. In fact, with a 10 liter tank, you won't even need a radiator. (The surface of the tank (and pipes) will radiate enough heat).
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  #26  
Old Thu 05 February 2009, 12:12
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
In Canada then in the winter, I would probably have to preheat the coolant!
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  #27  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 17:03
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
For the 2.2kw water cooled spindle would not the pumps, reservoirs and radiators used for water cooling PC be adequate? For instance the ones stuff shown here http://www.xoxide.com/watcoolcas1.html

David
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  #28  
Old Wed 17 June 2009, 17:34
docarter
Just call me: Donna #87
 
Suwanee, Georgia
United States of America
I also purchased a 2.2kw water cooled spindle. Received it yesterday; after a 3 week waiting period. I didn't include my phone when I paid for it I am setting up a test bench at work to test it to ensure I received what was advertised. I plan to use a similar PC cooling system configuration. I'm using all Innovatek products and everything will be mounted under the table. Innovatek is a Germany company that has been in the business of industrial cooling system for years.
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  #29  
Old Wed 17 June 2009, 20:40
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
http://www.innovatek.de/ (in German only)
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  #30  
Old Wed 17 June 2009, 21:11
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Donna - frankly speaking G' convinced me that no cooling system is required - I have a 15 liter bucket of water being re-circulated with a pump and that is good enough!

after 4 hours of hard work the water is luke warm and the spindle is happily chugging away!

I have no complains.

RGDS
Irfan
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